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Study showing vaccinations can cause autoimmunity

Discussion in 'Parents of Children with Type 1' started by Charlotte'sMom, Aug 15, 2012.

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  1. Charlotte'sMom

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    Hoping to have a civil conversation about this. But I find this very worrisome. I don't post this to suggest that vaccines cause all T1D because I know first-hand an unvaccinated child with T1D (I believe there could be countless triggers for T1), but I think it could be a part of a very complex puzzle. We all know that once a person has one autoimmune disease the chance they develop another is significantly higher, so of course I worry about DD and my other kids. I read a book a few years ago on autoimmunity (can't remember the title now) where the author felt it wasn't in the best interest of someone with an autoimmune disease to get vaccinated. That's worried me ever since. And this study only intensifies those worries.

    The one part that I found surprising about this article was that damaged cells from mice injected into other mice caused autoimmunity in them as well, suggesting that anyone who had an autoimmune disease shouldn't donate blood. Charlotte is only 5 so donating blood hadn't ever crossed my mind. Is there already a "rule" about people with T1D donating blood?

    http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/20...vitably-cause-autoimmune-diseases-plos-study/

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0008382

    Just wondering what others' thoughts on this article are.
     
  2. Sarah Maddie's Mom

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  3. sooz

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    I love how he says in the comments that type 2 can merge into type 1 and how he thinks most docs over-diagnose type 1. Sounds like an authority to me.
     
  4. Charlotte'sMom

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    Then ignore the first link and click on the 2nd link. It's the link to the original study.


    You're derailing my thread. That's not even the article I was posting about. ;)
     
  5. StillMamamia

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    What I'm getting from this is basically that an "outside" trigger can lead to autoimmune issues, but that we don't know what this trigger is for certain - the antigen does not necessarily mean vaccines, from what I gather.

    Furthermore, the first link states that autoimmune diseases are a "modern plague", which, IMO, is simply false. Autoimmune diseases have been around pre-Industrial Revolution, except people either were not dx or just died before a dx was made.

    Plus, in the study it is clearly written that the nmice were purposely exposed with the antigen to levels far beyond "normal" levels.

    IMO, their conclusion just states that autoimmunity arises when the immune system is exposed to these extreme antigen levels. But I don't see where it clearly states vaccines. Unless I missed that part. I don't think staphylococcus enterotoxin is part of a vaccine.:confused:
     
  6. swellman

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  7. Charlotte'sMom

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    Please read my original post. Your response isn't remotely helpful. I didn't say I thought it caused all T1D. My concern more is what this means for my child (and other children who now have a "family history of autoimmune disease) who has already proven herself to be susceptible to autoimmune diseases.
     
  8. wilf

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    Here is the gem from the first website:
    "Type 2 can merge into type 1, and I'd bet that most docs over-diagnose type 1."

    Any website whose author puts a post like this on it can be written off as utterly useless as a source of information.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  9. Charlotte'sMom

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    Thanks for your thoughtful response. I do agree that autoimmune diseases have been around a long time. But we are seeing a significant rise in autoimmune diseases in general and I don't believe it's just because people are being diagnosed better.
     
  10. swellman

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    Really? The studies that found that children who were already known to be susceptible because of a sibling with T1D and other factors had no increase in diagnosis due to vaccinations wasn't comforting? I was trying to be helpful by pointing to the studies that said there's no evidence of vaccination causality EDIT: even among siblings diagnosed with T1D.

    How about the part that the study you stated "immunized" the mice with toxins, specifically, this one.

    EDIT2: I find it very worrisome that this study used the word "immunization" when actually meaning "injecting with a toxin". There is no vaccination for SEC so they weren't vaccinating for it ... they were injecting it to specifically illicit a response - a response to a very significant toxin.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  11. Charlotte'sMom

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  12. emm142

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    I think that it is interesting, and that it warrants more research into the subject in order to reach firm conclusions about humans. Given all of the times that mice have been cured and humans have not, I am very wary of the physiological differences between mice and humans.

    Assuming the study is valid etc. (I will admit that I haven't read it too deeply), it might show that there is a mechanism where the immune system can be triggered by antigens. However, it doesn't show that this happens in humans. For the moment, I personally would pay more attention to the studies in humans which show that vaccinations do not alter chances of developing T1D.

    Thanks for posting, though. Much as I am doubtful and think that this should be treated with a pinch of salt, I am interested in the potential triggers for type 1. And for now, I still plan to vaccinate my future kids. ;)
     
  13. Sarah Maddie's Mom

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    From the American Red Cross website, "Diabetics who are well controlled on insulin or oral medications are eligible to donate."
     
  14. swellman

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    Ok, the article.

    3 years old in a discount journal and very few views. An antivaxxer/autism "advocate" gets hold of it and tweets that it says repeated vaccinations causes autoimmunity EDIT: AND that autoimmune diseases are infectious, which is doesn't say, and then it's views goes up 10 times via Facebook and Twitter. It is relatively uncited so .... inject mice repeatedly with toxins and they develop autoimmunity, perhaps.

    Like Emma stated, I will stick with human studies for the time being.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  15. Lovemyboys

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    If having a virus or cold or infection of some kind can trigger T1D or other autoimmune disease, why is it such a stretch to say that a virus we inject into someone (either attenuated, killed, or conjugate) could also trigger T1D? The goal during vaccinating is to acquire immunity, to do that you need to stimulate antibody production and hopefully immunological memory.

    That said, my little guy is unvaccinated, so obviously his wasn't caused by vaccines. He did have a pretty bad cold/virus about a month before he was diagnosed.
     
  16. swellman

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    Except for the studies that indicate vaccines do NOT increase the incidence of T1D I guess it's not such a huge stretch. Also, has it been determined that a virus or cold or infection is a trigger?
     
  17. Sarah Maddie's Mom

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    And like there's some choice? Sure, while it was rare to opt-out a small group of people could decide not to immunize their kids and remain safe because of the willingness of the majority to get the vaccines and provide the "herd" with a wall of protection. As more and more people are opting out this is what's happening. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/20/us-usa-whoopingcough-idUSBRE86J05U20120720

    When kids start dying of preventable and almost eradicated diseases I think the scapegoating of vaccinations has gone too far.
     
  18. Lovemyboys

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    http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/54/suppl_2/S125.full

    "Accordingly, we are left with viral infections as the most likely explanation for the seasonal variation in the emergence of the first signs of β-cell autoimmunity."
     
  19. sooz

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    I agree. I am old enough to remember the specter of my childhood - polio. What a blessing it was when the Salk and Sabin vaccines were developed and polio was all but eradicated from the collective memory and dread. But if you are old enough to have lived through those dreadful dangers, it is hard to forget the children that were imprisoned in "iron lungs" or died. I think the benefits of vaccines far outweigh the risks.
     
  20. joshualevy

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    Have you read the paper? If so, look at what they injected, and then look those things up on Wikipedia and see if any of them are vaccines. I don't think that paper reports on vaccines at all, or anything that has ever been used as a vaccine in people or animals.

    Also, I did notice that they injected whatever-it-was once every 5 days. So that is about 60 injections a year. It's like one of those studies where they fed pounds and pounds of some chemical to rats, and they reported that the chemical caused cancer!

    Joshua Levy
     
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