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Should people who refuse vaccines pay a price ?

Discussion in 'Other Hot Topics' started by Becky Stevens mom, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. Becky Stevens mom

    Becky Stevens mom Approved members

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    http://www.npr.org/2011/07/18/138476664/should-people-who-refuse-vaccines-pay-a-price


    "Measles can be almost entirely eliminated by universal vaccination. But vaccination rates are down, because some people refuse the shots on philosophical or religious grounds. Others worry the injections are harmful, despite overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.

    Public health officials agree choosing not to vaccinate raises the risks for everybody. And David Ropeik, an author and instructor at Harvard University, argues it's time for those who refuse vaccines to face consequences."
     
  2. kiwimum

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    The measle outbreak in NZ is here in Auckland, in a suburb about 30mins from us...

    I do think Dr Wakefield has a lot to answer for :mad:
     
  3. swellman

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    Well ... he has already been stricken from the record (license revoked) and his article was retracted and his research failed reproduction. There's not much that can be done to him. The crackpots are keeping him in the money though.
     
  4. kiwimum

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    I know, and it makes me mad :mad:
     
  5. lynn

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    I have been thinking about this thread for a few days. While I am highly in favor of immunizations, I think punishing people for not immunizing their kids is wrong.
     
  6. Charlotte'sMom

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    Sorry, but I don't believe this is the government's job.
     
  7. jbmom1b2g

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    I honestly think if you dont want to vacinate that is your decision. I dont think you should be punished for it. But I dont want to be told that I am horrible for vaccinating my kids. I have an friend who refuses to vaccinate and told me the other day that I basically caused my DD to get D because I vaccinated her. To each thier own.
     
  8. Lisa P.

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    We opt out of some vaccines for religious reasons.

    Several vaccines are produced using fetal cell lines. In our family, we choose not to purchase products that use cell lines from aborted fetuses and aborted or non-implanted embryos.

    Most folks here, even the ones who believe I'm mistaken, would agree I have the right to do that without penalty.

    If more vaccine choices were available on the U.S. market, as they are elsewhere, I would be able to vaccinate more and make the herd happy. But if the herd prefers to call names and threaten, I guess the divide will continue to widen.
     
  9. thebestnest5

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    Here's the adverse reactions for MMR II by Merck.

    http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

    I asked my children's pediatrician if he could find out more information about the adverse reaction: Diabetes mellitus on that list.

    Pediatrician could not find any answers to his questions. :(

    I don't feel that people who make choices based on their own philosophical or religious beliefs should be "punished" for not vaccinating.
     
  10. swellman

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    Firstly, I think the diabetes "adverse reaction" thing has been thoroughly hash around on other threads here.

    Secondly, is there any circumstance where you feel not vaccinating would be punishable?
     
  11. thebestnest5

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    Firstly, what do you mean?--not starting a debate...pointing out that there are people would do look for answers to questions and come up short. I was sharing that Merck has it on their list and my ped could not get answers to his questions.

    Secondly, Swellman, if I even started to debate you on this, I'd probably have the real risk of my blood pressure going way too high.:p

    You want to make this really simple? No, I don't think I should be punished for delaying vaccinations in my kids, that is the most clear and honest answer I can give...and my last post on it. I fear the diseases and I also fear the vaccine reactions which can include death. As a person, who has been on the wrong side of the odds more than I care to think about, I do also fear, injecting my healthy baby with something that could seriously damage or kill him. Is it rare, yes? Does it happen, yes? Will rare, comfort me, no? So, my child's pediatricians and I chose to delay to a point when we felt medicine could do more interventions/procedures to a child to save them in the chance a severe adverse reaction happened

    Yes, there are probably awful, no-good, abusive, neglectful parents out there who also do not vaccinate...not vaccinating is not the worst of those parents.
     
  12. kiwikid

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    Are you going to charge me per each vaccine refused? or just a one off cost? ;)
     
  13. swellman

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    On the first point ... I wasn't trying to debate anything. I was merely pointing out that your question about diabetes as an adverse reaction was thoroughly discussed here in a few threads and you might be interested in the discussion - perhaps you already knew of that.

    On the second point I was sincerely interested if you thought there was no situation where not vaccinating was a punishable offense or there could be some that were warranted. In other words, I understand that you don't think you should be punished but do you believe others should?

    Personally, I'm pretty sure I can't support fines for vaccination compliance. I do believe in personal liberties, however, I also feel that there is good science behind not allowing children to be grouped together, like in schools, where vaccination is subjective. In other words, I don't support philosophical or religious exemptions. I do support medically necessary exemptions of course.
     
  14. thebestnest5

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  15. hawkeyegirl

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    Swellman is right that there have been numerous threads on this board about the fact that T1 is listed as an "adverse effect" for the MMR vaccine. I think it's pretty well accepted that there is no evidence, ZERO that the MMR vaccine causes T1. Vaccine manufacturers are required to list ALL "adverse effects" that occur during their studies, REGARDLESS of evidence of causation. So if my kid got the MMR on Tuesday and was diagnosed with T1 on Friday, Merck lists it as an adverse event. Same as if he gets a rash, a fever or purple spots on his foot.

    Hope that helps.
     
  16. thebestnest5

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    I do understand that adverse effects are reported without regard to causality, as stated in the literature. If we knew what actually caused diabetes mellitus then it'd be different.

    I just want to vaccinate my children as safely as I possibly can...since I do fear vaccine-preventable diseases, but I am not so obtuse to think that a serious vaccine reaction could absolutely never happen to my child.

    In fact, I have posted many times that vaccines absolutely did not cause Type 1 in my child, and I can state that with ultimate truth, since my child was totally unvaccinated at dx.

    Also, is there any possibility there could be any greater risk to children of first degree relatives with Type 1 Diabetes? Has this been studied? If so, then I am not aware of that.

    Anyway, my point was, regard to causality or not, with some heavy adverse reactions for some vaccines, which can include death, I don't feel that punishing people for conscientiously not vaccinating "on schedule" is appropriate.
     
  17. Brensdad

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    For argument's sake, I don't see how those who choose not to vaccinate raises the risk for those who do since presumably those who are vaccinated are immune. Although I suppose risk would exist for those who have not yet received the vaccine (the very young).

    I find the vaccination issue fascinating. I am not in the camp that believes vaccines cause the spectrum of auto-immune problems some attribute them to; nor do I necessarily completely dismiss those claims either as I just don't know enough about it to say definitively.

    As the saying goes, "An individual's rights end where another's begins."
     
  18. swellman

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    It's precisely because vaccinations are not 100% effective. Some show no immunity and some can be infected, and retransmit, but have less severe symptoms.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

    EDIT: I think it was in England because of a huge anti-vaccination movement the vaccination rate fell below the herd immunity threshold and the diseases came back. I think there were pockets of the same example in other places as well.
     
  19. Lakeman

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    Not only are all vaccines not 100% effective, but for some of them the number of people who do not become immune can be as high as 50%.

    Therefore if a small number of people refuse a vaccine it may very well have little to no effect on the total number of people who do not become immune as a result of a vaccination program.

    As a matter of personal experience my son received the vaccine for chicken pox but he had chicken pox three times in the following years.
     
  20. swellman

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    Firstly, I request your reference to the 50% claim.

    Secondly, the efficacy is taken into account on the herd immunity threshold and any percentage decrease in vaccination would be additive on top of the efficacy.

    So, if your assertion is those who refuse to vaccinate have little impact on herd immunity I would assert that it could be enough to fall under the threshold and have a significant impact.

    Thirdly, what condition does your son have that prevents him from building antibodies to chicken pox? I would assume this would be true for any virus but I am truly interested in what this condition is. I would think, in this case, one would be more likely to support increased vaccination rates as he would certainly be one of those protected with herd immunity.
     

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