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Great article on Paleo

Discussion in 'Parents of Children with Type 1' started by Dave, Jan 8, 2014.

  1. wilf

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    Quoting from page 79 of Using Insulin, by John Walsh:
    "Large portions of protein.. can cause blood sugars to rise. Half of the calories in protein are slowly converted to glucose over a period of several hours. For instance a hig protein meal like an 8 oz steak.. may cause blood sugars to rise 4 - 12 hours later.."
     
  2. SarahKelly

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    No, this is correct.
    The way that her dietician and doctor have set it up is that she will now start slowly increasing her carb intake (with the peak being 10grams), however it all depends on how things are going. So far on this very strict diet she has been seizure free for 6 months.

    They utilize a concept similar to TAG (Total available glucose) where they calculate that 58% or protein turns into available glucose and 10% of fat does, too. Therefor your body is still able to grow and develop, the diet just has to be much more strictly monitored and deliberately planned. It is almost like it was in early diabetes diagnosis where one ate specific amounts of proteins/fats/carbs at specific times.
    I honestly can not fully explain it, nor do I fully understand it. But I do know it is working for them.
     
  3. swellman

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    That's completely different. I'm completely aware of protein and fat gluconeogenesis. However, it's still incorrect to say that proteins have carbs in them. It's like saying ethanol has carbs in it - yes, it has carbon and hydrogen and oxygen but is not generally considered to be a carbohydrate. Ethanol also has a gluconeogenesis pathway. These things do not have carbs in them but there are metabolic pathways that can convert them to glucose.

    I'm not advocating the paleo diet but it's just not true that one HAS to have carbohydrates to thrive. IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
  4. emm142

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    That's so great that the ketogenic diet has helped her to get seizure free. There are 13 centres across the UK offering ketogenic diet plans and support as part of epilepsy treatment, and the UK is a small place, so that certainly makes it more than just a fringe treatment! Going to so few carbs is obviously a very radical choice, but there was a TV show I watched recently with a very young child (3 or 4 IIRC) who was having seizures tens of times a day and had to wear a helmet to protect himself from brain damage when he hit his head. His language acquisition was delayed just from the fact that he was spending so much time having seizures, and the ketogenic diet got him seizure free.

    The fact that people are doing this diet for totally necessary medical reasons (epilepsy) should hopefully give some insight into whether it is healthy and supports growth, and means that people with less urgent health conditions (e.g. diabetes) could judge whether the diet would work for their child/family.
     
  5. swellman

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    I don't think one can infer that, because it may be successful treating epilepsy, that it's healthy. I seriously doubt it is healthy long term for anyone but it just might be the lesser of two evils. I have been on a fairly low carb diet for a few months and it has helped me lose almost 25 pounds. I feel great and have seen a few other issues disappear that I can only assume was diet related. On the other hand I have no doubt that it's not good for my arteries and heart and when I reach my goal I am going to switch to a healthier diet ... if I last that long.
     
  6. C6H12O6

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    The effect of the ketogenic diet for epilepsy has to with the neurological effect of the brain running on ketones. The brain is one tissue that can run on ketones.
    This also relates back to diabetes, if a person is on a ketogenic diet and they go low they will have fewer of the neurological symptoms causes by a low.
     
  7. emm142

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    I'm not saying it's necessarily better for diabetes than any other diet, but some children have seizures from low blood sugars and find it very hard to function with highs. I think that most of the bodily damage caused by eating a high fat diet is caused by high cholesterol etc. so if regular tests are done and this is not a problem, it could potentially be better than the damage done by rollercoaster blood sugars. Not saying that this is definitely the case for anyone and certainly not for everyone, but just that it might not be quite so damaging as some people automatically infer, and that evidence from children with epilepsy might show that children can in fact grow and be reasonably healthy on a low-carb diet.
     
  8. C6H12O6

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    That's why some ppl learn to bolus based on protein and fat. Emma eluded to this is another thread. Some call it the TAG system and I think there is a sub group on tu diabetes about the topic
     
  9. Junosmom

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    I am starting to read Pumping Insulin by Walsh. Last night, I saw a passage that said one study showed that A1C was not the determining factor in complications - big variations in BG were. I can't provide references yet, because I was reading the sample of the book, my hard copy book is on the way though.
     
  10. emm142

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    Yeah there's definitely info on TuD. I might give it a try once I'm done studying... if I'm ever done studying. Counting carbs seems like quite enough to be getting on with, though I guess TAGing might be worth it if it could significantly reduce BG swings. Not sure why it all has to be so much effort though!
     
  11. Junosmom

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    I do not advocate the low carb diet, and am not writing this to support Dave's opinion that T1Ds should all follow the "Paleo diet". But there is one thing that is bothering me about the conversation and the usage in the media of the term "Paleo diet" as if it is an accurate portrayal of what Paleolithic people ate. From what I've read about early man, they ate whatever they could get. Meat was very difficult to obtain and took lots of energy to catch. They did eat eggs that they found, they ate lots of plant-based material, and yes, meat. But they didn't eat an all meat, no carb diet from what I understand. I think that the fad term "Paleo diet" is misinformed as to what these early people ate. They likely ate carbs.

    I found this reference:
    From <http://www.kcet.org/living/food/food-rant/cavemen-paleo-diet-accurate.html>

    "After he tenderly explained to me that "caveman" isn't the proper terminology I should be using, he said, "As for the Paleolithic diet, there was no single 'Paleolithic Diet.' Diet in the Paleolithic was based on hunted and gathered wild foodstuffs. We know a lot more about the hunted things than gathered because animal bones preserve well in archaeological sites, while plant remains do not. So, it is difficult to know exactly what proportion of the diet would have been made up of hunted vs. gathered foods."

    To get a second opinion, I posed the same line of questioning regarding the merit of a meat-heavy "paleo diet" to Dr. Jeanne E. Arnold, an anthropologist at UCLA. Her answer's a bit more blunt: "Nope, not much merit at all. People ate probably more non-meat foods than meat foods in every era in human history. It's just that plant foods don't leave as clear of a record, and male-dominated sciences focus more on male food acquisition, which is more about meat than female food tasks. You might want to look up protein poisoning, also. It can kill you.""
     
  12. C6H12O6

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    if you figure out a system you can use the manual bolus - normal bolus on the MM. you don't have to use the bolus wizard. sorry if I am stating the obvious
     
  13. emm142

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    Oh yeah, I know that thanks. :) Just don't think I would have the drive to get a calculator every time and figure it all out. I guess it's one of the times where you compromise and pick the option that you will actually bother to do, rather than the one that would give the perfect results.
     
  14. swellman

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    Just to be clear, I was under the impression that the metabolism of protein and fats to glucose primarily, if not only, occurs in situations where carbs are absent. So, with a "normal" carb meal the contribution of protein and fats would be negligible, right?
     
  15. Don

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    I suppose the degree of protein spike in the presence or absence of carbs varies from person to person. I don't have it figured out precisely in a TAG formula but I do have to sometimes bolus for protein. I don't eat low carb but must bolus for the cheese when I have cheese sandwich...and I suspect my typical pizza bolus is partly to cover the cheese.
     
  16. Mish

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    Well, this study doesn't address no carb vs normal carb, but it was done with a standard amount of carbs, for both low fat/low protein and high fat/high protein, and glucose did rise even though carbs were consumed;
    http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/early/2013/10/22/dc13-1195

    So I think it proteins and fats do metabolize to glucose even when there are carbs present.
     
  17. mmgirls

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    That is not my understanding. Protein and fat will be metabolized and glucose created, always. Not just when there is not enough available glucose.

    This is where I believe the concept of following up a low with fat/protein to "hold" BG comes into play. But my understanding is that the conversion to glucose takes hours.
     
  18. ecs1516

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    I wonder if this is why we still have a rise when we do basal checking and do carb free, protein only
     
  19. swellman

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconeogenesis

    Yes, it's a wikipedia article ...

    I'm confused by the "in many other animals" part - are humans one of those I guess is the big question. Except for the nasty gum chewers, we are not ruminants. ;)
     
  20. wilf

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    No, my understanding is that this is just something that happens - whether or not carbs are present. So any bigger meal with high protein or fat, you want to make a little adjustment to account for them.
     

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