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Great article on Paleo

Discussion in 'Parents of Children with Type 1' started by Dave, Jan 8, 2014.

  1. emm142

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    Wow, I'm really surprised that this happened. I get large ketones when I have less than 50g carbs per day, but was under the impression that it was all fine if you were still having basal insulin and your BG was normal - I've certainly never had any symptoms from it. People on the Atkins diet (non-D) actually buy ketostix as ketones are desirable - any time your body burns fat for energy, you make ketones, so they're the hallmark for people who want to see weight loss.

    I'm not really LOW low carb atm, but about 50-100g per day which is about a quarter to a half of what I was having when eating a vegetarian diet with lots of chocolate :)p). I'm feeling good on it and my weight is stable but exercise seems to be having more of an impact on my musculature, I have been running etc. for quite a while, but never had visible abs until now - I'm at the upper end of the healthy BMI range (23) but have visible muscles all over, D is under better control, and I'm feeling good. Not advocating it for children, but a fairly low carb diet can help some adults with D for sure. There's just less room for error. Now most of my highs and lows are basal-induced, whereas before I had all the ones from basal problems mixed with ones from iffy boluses.
     
  2. nanhsot

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    It was during football playoffs, so it may have been one of those perfect storm type things, where he was working out a LOT, so not needing much insulin, eating virtually no carbs, so bolusing very little, etc.

    Who knows what the actual causation was, but it was an eye opener and definitely something to factor in when going very low carb. I personally don't think low carb is a great idea for children, ever. For folks like you and my son, when done mindfully and carefully, I think it's do-able, just know that ketones can and do happen.
     
  3. Don

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    Not sure what happened in your son's case but anyone's body naturally produces ketones if eating a diet low in carb and high in fat. This is normal (ketones are a natural byproduct of burning fat) and is not the same as diabetic ketoacidosis. If your son were only just beginning a low carb diet then the flu-like symptoms may have been the common crappy feeling that people experience when transitioning off a high carb to a low carb diet.
     
  4. C6H12O6

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    Yes, it is normal to produce ketones in situations of carb and calorie deficit.

    But a person can still become mildly acidotic as a result.
    In particular a diabetic person would be vulnerable to this if they spiked even briefly into the 10-13 mmol range

    I've had confirmed acidosis as a result of starvation ketones in the absence of illness
     
  5. mmgirls

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    I see this with my dd with a stomach flu that has her having low to perfect BG's because she is not absorbing carbs. This is why I advocate to test ketones with sickness no matter the BG.
     
  6. wilf

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    You are incorrect. You haven't provided references to support this silly assertion, because there are none.

    I pity your child.
     
  7. nanhsot

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    Yes, I am aware of this. He started a low carb diet, exercising a lot, and did not offset the expected ketones with insulin, and had large ketones. The flu like symptoms ARE how ketones present in him, it wasn't from the diet, the diet had been going on for a few weeks.

    Ketones are a normal byproduct, but the body cannot process them without insulin. If you choose to go low carb and are diabetic, it's important to make sure you have enough insulin to clear the ketones. He did not and it almost made him ill. I didn't claim he was in DKA, he wasn't. But he had large ketones that were making him feel ill. Every single time he's had ketones>small, he feels flu-like, stumbles, slurs his words. It was ketones, not the diet.
    It is important to understand all this when claiming that a low carb diet is a good idea in a child.
     
  8. Sarah Maddie's Mom

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    I think starvation ketones can really test YDMV. We have never treated them with insulin, not once. And that's on Drs orders. It's really interesting how they present differently for different people. Our instructions have always been that carbs clear starvation ketones and any insulin involved is just covering the carbs.
     
  9. nanhsot

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    Truth be told, I'm not sure what should have been done differently, as I agree with all you've written here, as a general rule. There was something about his situation, very low carb, very high activity, that threw ketones he couldn't clear. Maybe it was the fact that he wasn't eating carbs so wasn't bolusing and the basal wasn't enough? I'm not sure it was so much starvation ketones, since he was eating quite a lot of protein and such, and more the ketosis produced from specific low carb diets, not sure if that matters or factors in.

    Your advice is spot on in that once we recognized what was happening, he started eating carbs and drinking lots and lots of water and flushed them out rather quickly.

    I just think it's noteworthy in a conversation about limiting carbs in children.
     
  10. Sarah Maddie's Mom

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    I think our experience is tempered by the fact that my kid seems to be very resistant to developing ketones in the first place - I know that this isn't true for all kids and I agree, the potential for ketones IS greater on a super low carb diet AND that those ketones may not present as do simple starvation ketones.:wink:
     
  11. Don

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    Makes sense, I guess a low carb diet may require an uptick in basal to clear the ketones. A low carb diet seems to require so much adjustment, I personally find it intimidating.
     
  12. Amy C.

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    Low carb diets - like Atkins - are great for those with a healthy pancreas to lose weight. It is more healthy in general to not eat a whole lot of carbs - like chips, soda, cakes, ice cream, candy. Americans go overboard with such foods.

    However, I would NEVER have a child with Type 1 diabetes follow a very low carb diet (under 20 grams a day).

    I have been able to lose weight and to keep it off by eating low carb. I have lots of veggies, some fruit, fair amount of protein and about the same amount of fat. When my son is home, I have to remember to add bread and other starches to the meal.
     
  13. funnygrl

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    I guess I don't get it. The paleo diet's advocates say we should be doing it because our body doesn't know how to digest non-cavemen foods. Eggs and bacon aren't cavemen fiods. So per the paleo diet and the link he posted we don't know how to digest them. Hence cancer and obesity. It seems like the diet op is using is simply low carb, not paleo.
     
  14. mmgirls

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    I know, He never stated what he thought was so great about it. Just, here you go, as if we had asked for the info.
     
  15. nanhsot

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    True for mine as well, I can count on one hand the number of times he's developed ketones, and have a few fingers left over! I think that's why this experience was so significant for him. He's not prone to ketones at all, but develop them he did, and felt the effects as well.
     
  16. C6H12O6

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    Dave, will you post pics of your son's birthday cake made out of meat ?
     
  17. swellman

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    It's my understanding that it requires insulin to remove ketones. It's entirely possible that it serves a dual purpose so when you eat carbs and bolus for them the insulin clears the ketones. I feel reasonably comfortable saying that simply eating carbs will not remove ketones. Of course, I am speaking from a T1D perspective. In non-T1Ds it's an entirely different situation.
     
  18. SarahKelly

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    This was my understanding, too.
    However, it seems that depending upon the diet and the complexity of it there are times when ketones are present and they don't require any action. I have a good friend whose daughter has t1d and epilepsy. She needed to go on a ketogenic diet to help treat the epilepsy as she wasn't getting any relief from other treatments. Her diet is very specific about the amount of protein/fat she eats and she can only consume up to 4grams of carbs a day. She has to check her ketone level daily to try and keep it within a certain range for proper treatment (it would be trace-small ketones), however it is perfectly safe as she is still covering her glucose consumption (%of protein and fat still turn into glucose as you know) with insulin and her basal rate, too. So, these ketones are under the term "ketosis" where as if she weren't checking frequently and had developed moderate to large ketones that is "ketoacidosis" which is when there isn't enough insulin.
    This was very confusing to me at first but when her mother explained it more I understood it is definitely a fine line between healthy and treating her epilepsy and not being healthy. So, they check ketones frequently and adjust adjust adjust. It is difficult, however it has kept her seizure free for 6 months now, she is growing great and very happy to not be going to the hospital as frequently as she was before.
    I know this is not the same as what others have tried or done, but it is one way that ketones don't necessarily need insulin.
     
  19. Amy C.

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    That is not possible to eat only 4 grams of carbohydrate a day and eat enough calories to grow. Even meat contains some carbs, and nuts a bit more. Almost all veggies contain some carbs as well.

    Are you sure that number is correct?
     
  20. swellman

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    Meat has no measurable carbs as far as I know.
     

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