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Gary Scheiner's comparison of MM sensors

Discussion in 'Continuous Glucose Sensing' started by Michelle'sMom, Sep 4, 2011.

  1. Michelle'sMom

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    Gary is doing a side by side comparison of the Medtronic Sofsensor & new Enlite sensor. On Aug 31, he was on day 8. Accuracy was best days 3-5, but he says he can't see much difference between the two sensors. The results & a full review will be in the next issue of his newsletter, Diabetes Bites. You can sign up to receive the email newsletter at http://www.integrateddiabetes.com/
     
  2. emm142

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    From the ones I've used, I can see a considerable difference between the two - but the Enlite isn't better than the Sofsensor in all aspects. The Enlite tracked highs and lows better (rather than "topping out" at a certain number, but the Enlite also seemed to give me far more completely false lows. In my opinion, the most noticeable difference between the two was that the Enlites are far more comfortable and left no visible scar, whereas I get scars from every Sofsensor I use. But those differences didn't really make up for all the overnight false lows... Sleep is kind of important!

    Thanks for posting. I'm always interested in what other people have to say.
     
  3. Darryl

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    Emma,

    Do you think the Enlites are more sensitive to pressure than the old sensors?
     
  4. emm142

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    In a word, yes. The overnight lows I got with them were pretty intense, and the main thing I can imagine causing that is pressure. I guess there could also be some influence from a lower overnight blood pressure, but that seems a little more out there.
     
  5. Michelle'sMom

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    I follow Integrated Diabetes Services on FB. The message Gary sent was through there. We use Dexcom, but I've been following your posts Emma, & I think it will be interesting to compare your experience with his.

    He did mention that inserting the sensor the night before starting made a big difference in reducing error messages, but he didn't say if that applied to both sensors or only one. He also agreed the Enlite is much more comfortable to insert.
     
  6. Lize

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    We're also struggeling with false lows overnight and basal suspension. Almost every night we have to turn of the sensor , leave it off for 1 - 2 hours and restart. With the SofSensor we had very close to 100% accuracy on her thigh after the 2nd day right through to day 8. If I had a choice, I'd much rather use the SofSensor than the Enlite. Sorry but I just can't find our "happy place" with this. I don't think that I am going to buy another box after this one is finished. Just not worth the money.
     
  7. hawkeyegirl

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    We do that with our current SofSensors. It really does make a difference.

    Well, that is not encouraging at all. MM needs to get their act together. :mad:
     
  8. Melissata

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    I am really disappointed to hear that these new sensors are not any improvement at all. It seems as if no one really gets how big a difference a good CGM can make and how frustrating it is to deal with some of the issues like these false lows. Who wants to be awakened during the night for false alarms? It is tough enough when they are real, because having sleep interrupted constantly is not good for anyone.

    My son is not having great luck with the Dex, but I know that he would have no patience at all with false lows all of the time. He had one with the Dex on the first day of his second sensor. It alarmed that he was low and he treated right away and then tested. He was over 300!!!!! He had just set up a tent and is so used to being able to trust the Navigator, but he tested within a couple of minutes. I told him that he should call them back again with that data. I think he got a faulty system because we sure have never seen that in well over a year.
    I told him to tell the Dexcom people that there still is another system out there that he can try if they don't offer a replacement this time. But especially after reading this, he is going to have to make the Dex work and just test more often than he did on the Navigator.
     
  9. hawkeyegirl

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    Oh, I wouldn't rule out the MM for him. I think it's like how some people have terrible trouble with ??? on the Dex and some people never do. Body chemistry plays a big role in these things. I also think that MM is more similar to Nav when it comes to the features that it has and the customization of alarms. Dex is very basic.

    I can tell you that every single false low we've ever had on the MM has come from him laying on the sensor, and I think they're all prone to that.

    The poster Diana wrote an interesting review of all three systems, and in her opinion, Nav and MM were most similar to each other. I'll see if I can find it.

    ETA: Here it is. Of course I remembered it wrong, LOL, and she said that the Dex and MM read more similarly to each other than the Nav. She did say that they had terrible false low issues with Dex, which sounds like what your son is having. But it's an interesting comparison from someone (competent!) who has used all three. :)
     
  10. Diana

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    It's funny to go back and read this.

    After a year on MM, I would say it is actually much more like the Nav for us. The sensors behave in predictable ways. We rarely, rarely ever have false highs or readings that are seemingly random - maybe twice in over a year? We occasionally have issues at night with false lows - but ours aren't like you guys describe where you see the sharp drop and then it fixes itself if you shift the kid off the sensor. Ours are just extended lows that look like a really cool flat line :rolleyes: If I leave it alone, it fixes itself when my son gets up and moving around. But even this issue is rare.

    MM is by far my favorite system. By far, far, far. Our only issue is that sensor life stinks, but we like it the best even so. And we are on our original reciever and only 2nd transmitter after 15 months - which if any of you remember our previous issues with hardware on both the Dex and Nav is quite miraculous.

    I'm a little worried about things I've read about the Enlite.
     
  11. selketine

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    I'm really annoyed that all of you people on the Dex and MM haven't figured out which one is best yet! Since I'm finally being forced to switch away from the Navigator I was hoping I'd waited long enough for you guys to come to a consensus - LOL!:p

    Gary loves his Dexcom - I'll be interested in his report but I think from hearing him talk about cgms devices in person (at FFL) - it is clear he thinks the Dex is superior. Not saying he would be biased but....

    I am also disappointed if the Enlite isn't "all that" cause I was hoping it would be more like the Navigator for accuracy. We had very few false lows with the Nav due to pressure on it (from lying down for example).

    Where are you wearing the Enlite or Dex with these false lows?
     
  12. emm142

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    Well, I've only used 3 Enlite sensors so an absolutely terrible number to attempt to generalise from.

    The one on my arm was absolutely terrible. Only lasted 5 days, and the false lows were awful. The one on my thigh was better, but I still got false lows most nights. The one on my abdomen was the best, with only a couple of nights of false lows out of the 7 I wore it.

    That's very different to what I see with Sofsensors (my abdomen is by far the worst place for them). I'd rather not be forced into wearing sensors on my abdomen since it's my best place for infusion sets and I'm trying to avoid scar tissue as best I can..
     
  13. Diana

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    Carol -

    I think it just depends on what you want. Having the data on the receiver and the ability to scroll through old readings was really important to me. I don't download - ever - so the Dex was frustrating for me. The fact that MM is basically indestructible is also nice of course :) Also, now that my son is pretty much independent with his care at school, MM allowing different alarm thresholds by time of day is really helpful - and I have used all 8 available options there.

    The Dex is really simple and basic. It is a good system, but it was less predictable for us (not less accurate when the sensors are working - but sensors could go wacky in unpredictable ways). If I were looking now, I would also be concerned about the issues some people have with Dex charging people for items still under warranty. I don't understand that at all.

    For a long time, we were barely getting 3 days out of MM sensors - compared to 10 days with the Dex and Nav. It sucks. But that is truly my only complaint (and it is not a minor complaint!). Luckily, we seem to have somehow overcome that lately and are now getting 5 or 6. Even with the shorter sensor life, we get much more consistent results from the MM. The sensors aren't ever really inaccurate - they just die early. But this obviously isn't true for everyone.

    Of course, as always, your CGM experience may vary (YCGMEMV?)
     
  14. hawkeyegirl

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    I think that the published accuracy of all three current systems is within a couple of percentage points of each other. Diana (good to see you again, Diana! :)), at least, has said that Nav is more accurate within "normal" BG ranges, but that MM and Dex track highs and lows better. I think Nav users are often surprised at the accuracy that they get with MM/Dex. (And some Nav users don't get as good of accuracy. Again, I do think body chemistry plays a large role.)

    I did read somewhere that the Enlite has clinical accuracy of being within 13% on average of BG readings and the next gen Dex has clinical accuracy of 14% within BG readings. So better than the current generation systems (which I think are in the 16-19% range), but not really enough better for me to get very excited about. It should be noted that the NextGen MM pump/Guardian will have a new algorithm that is presumably more accurate than the 13% referenced above, which was obtained with the algorithm in the current receivers.

    I'm still trying to figure out what we'll do in April when we're out of warranty. I suspect that nothing new will be out by then, and I'll be a monkey's uncle if I get locked in for four years to any of the same boring stuff that is out now. I think we'll try to hold out until all three new pumps/CGMs are out and trial them all.

    ETA: I also wanted to say that I think there is still some lingering "bad press" out there in some people's minds from the early days of the MM system. We started using it in 2008, and I think sometime in 2009 there was a significant increase in sensor quality. Our accuracy is really good enough that until they can actually replace fingerpokes, I don't much care if accuracy increases. We bolus and correct from it all the time, and treat some lows from it too.
     
  15. PatriciaMidwest

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    Yes, too bad there isn't one universal answer! For what it's worth, and not to take anything away from previous posters - but we've used both MM and Dex and I much prefer Dex. It is a completely different experience than what we had with MM. Dex gives us great accuracy, no false lows, pain free wear, no lost signals. Dex doesn't have the bells and whistles of MM, but we couldn't get consistent accuracy with MM so the bells and whistles really are irrelevant for us. In all fairness, your mileage may vary.


     
  16. Melissata

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    He only had that one false low, but the first sensor was off by over 50 points more than a few times. He said that it was accurate after he straightened it out and was reading close to the Navigator the rest of the weekend. I read a hint on TU that someone was given from Dexcom about making the sensor read better during the first 24 hours. They said to try to calibrate in both your low and higher range, not paying attention to the arrows since Dex is supposed to be okay with moving bg's. I know that I had read that here before as well, but haven't really tried it. We just don't fully trust it until day 2.


    I just know how much of a perfectionist he is and there just don't seem to be many people saying that they can test very little and trust the Minimed like so many did with Navigator. My daughter never did that and we were never able to trust it as much as he does. That is why I prefer the Dex for her, but know that nothing is going to measure up to the accuracy he says he gets from the Navigator. I say that because if you test only a few times a day, you can't be totally sure that it is always super accurate.


    He is still wearing both, and I wish that he was logging to really be able to see the differences. His last Navigator is acting up, so he really needs a back up now. He is wearing them on his arms, and thinks that he may have the Dex on the arm that he sleeps on. He said it shows a down arrow when he wakes up, which he can't believe is actually happening, because he has dawn phenomenon and Navigator always shows that. It does go back up on its own, so that is why I think that he must be sleeping on it to cause this. Of course the arm is not approved for Dexcom anyway. He does stomach shots and has for many years, so he really doesn't want to use abs. He may try abs off to the side, so he won't have to shave.

    I'm just bummed for him that he is not having the same experience that his sister does with the Dex. Maybe he should try the Minimed, but if that isn't good, then what? He needs something, even if it isn't great. Maybe he just needs to be more patient, I don't know.
     
  17. emm142

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    There is a lot of negativity around about the Minimed CGMS. I really don't think you can be sure until you've tried it - I think a lot has to do with individual body chemistry.

    What I do know is that there are a fair few people on here (including myself) who love the MM CGMS. I find it to be very accurate, and frankly the testing I do is more out of personal comfort than anything else. I don't ever get false highs with the Sofsensors, and the occasional false lows are usually easy to distinguish from real lows. My current sensor is on day 9 and going strong, and I think in 2 years I've only had 1 or 2 sensors die before day 7.

    My experience is limited by the fact that I haven't tried any of the other systems, but I just wanted to say that I wouldn't disregard the MM CGMS just because you have heard bad things about it. There is a bit of a learning curve and I do find it far more accurate if I calibrate when stable, etc... but honestly, there are many of us out there who love it.
     
  18. Diana

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    I agree with this. There was no way- NO WAY!! - when we started the CGM that we were going to use MM because of all the things I read and heard about it. Plus, I kind of think of MM as the Evil Empire.

    But I love it. A lot.

    Luckily, my son does not find it uncomfortable and the needle doesn't freak him out. And we don't have trouble with lost sensors or weak signals. And the parts don't break ;)
     
  19. MReinhardt

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    Chell's original guardian unit receiver & transmitter still works, she's had them since Nov 2007. :)
     
  20. emm142

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    That's great! My transmitter is going strong since Nov 2009, I hope I can make it another 2 years! :)
     

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