Discussion in 'Parents of Children with Type 1' started by monkeyschool, Jun 8, 2011.
is personal and not idea-based.
Well, it has posted quite a few times on here. It clearly state diabetes, and I don't remember the list mentioning a list of other diseases. I will try to find the post in "search" and repost.
is a fact, is not a misstatement of someone else's beliefs, and is not personal.
If you'd stuck with this, I'd have never responded to your post in this thread.
I have read through your line of reasoning and completely follow your thought process. Just to be clear, I understand that you are CURIOUS about the link between viral illness and Type 1, which is a definite and plausible theory. The research is strong that a viral illness may cause an immune system trigger that then attacks the pancreas.
Your question is one of curiosity, wondering if there are others who had a recent vaccine. Will it prove anything? Nope, but it is an interesting thing to ponder and it quite frankly drives me bonkers when people blow this particular discussion out of hand and make it personal.
It's an interesting THEORY. And I think it is interesting to see if there are others who similarly had live viruses injected into them (in addition to those who contracted natural viruses from the environment).
I do not vaccinate on a regular schedule and do not apologize for that, so if that helps clarify anything about who I am, there you go.
To answer your question, nope! No illness, no vaccine, no family history of anything autoimmune anywhere. I can say with quite certainty that my ds's diabetes appears to be completely random.
Scroll to page SEVEN.... (Under adverse reactions)
Is this your opinion, or do you have documentation to verify.
Listen, my point is, I do have a bunch of family members with Type One. The doctor never mentioned the possible (if any) link.. I didn't read the insert, I just read the papers that they give you.
My point is, if the doctor asked, looked at my family history, she should have given me the option to opt out.
I don't think that the MMR is a direct result of all kids getting Type One, but if there is a family history, I believe (my opinion) it could make the child develop it.. So, I would have opted out..
I just posted the following above. They've Studied MMR vaccine, and have found them not to be linked to not only diabetes, but asthma and other diseases.
Okay. thank you.. I wont post anymore on the subject.
Everyone can believe what they want, so I'm not going to make you believe what I believe, and you can't expect me to believe your beliefs.. Okay?
We can agree to disagree.. Enjoy this beautiful day!:cwds:
Thank you all for your replies so far (including the controversial ones as we can all learn from it all). I just got back from the doc and did pose the question making it clear that I was not trying to link vaccines as a cause, but rather a 'trigger'.
Doc said that the medical field has not done extensive research on the topic. As far as she knew there was no studies done with anyone shown to have the T1D markers and then followed through vaccines, rather people reporting to their endos that they had prior vaccines a bit before dx, but nothing conclusive came from it. She did agree that since vaccines contain the live virus, if in fact a virus is one of the triggers, a vaccine can very well be a trigger...the problem being that the field is not even sure if a virus is a trigger. As we all know there is no concrete data available.
For me this is more a matter of curiosity than anything else...we fall into the category that we are absolutely positive nothing as small as a cold came into play before dx, but we did have vaccine exposure (measles being one of them).
From everything I have read about the topic, there is no link, but there is also not no link which is why I feel knowing directly from others about their dx is better than not....conclusions or not (personally I don't draw any...just digest the data). Data is data and we take it for what is worth....enough of it together however can make for some serious interpretation which is why I try not to discount anything just because there is no established link. Someday there may be.....a recent example of this is food coloring to ADD symptoms.
Someday a cure may be possible because of abundant data....finding a definitive trigger may in-fact be a step towards that cure.
I'm really reluctant to get back into this thread at this time so I will preface my comment by saying I'm not directing this at you, nanshot, but instead, using your post as a springboard to a commentary.
I have concerns when I hear or see people who are "curious" or just "wondering" in situations just like this and the reason is, usually, they aren't really "just curious" but instead sniffing out correlations. They are looking for information on which to base a decision and that's fine, of course as we do it all the time on these boards. However, with that having been said, unless one is adept or trained at "critical thinking" it's really easy to see a few responses and make an incorrect correlation and infer causation.
I think one reason that people get riled up is that they are also concerned when fact, opinion and speculation are all thrown out there for those who are "curious" to see. They care enough to make sure that there's little confusion as to what is scientifically known to be true and what is opinion. We have a lot of readers - some with absolutely no experience with science and medicine and some intimately familiar. Personally, I'm glad people take the time bring clarity to subjects such as this.
In any event, I believe that the theory of vaccines causing diabetes has been sufficiently studied to rule out a causal relationship. It's unfortunate that science frowns on saying "Vaccines do NOT cause diabetes." because that's precisely what they want to say.
As for the drug inserts, I think there are two sections - one that has the very serious and known risks, contraindications and complications and the other that has the reported events. It's my understanding (not as an expert but as one-off from the pharma industry) that the small type reported events should be taken with a grain of salt.
Please do post more if you have anything else to say. I personally feel finding triggers is an important part in understanding this disease. The sad part is that no one really knows enough about what triggers ANY autoimmune disorder or enough about the autoimmune system as a whole to want to 'mess with it'.
MMR contains a collection of live viruses....it isn't the vaccine that is being questioned or the practice of vaccine safety, but rather the viruses contained in vaccines (which could also be picked up without a vaccine) and whether these in the amounts given in a vaccine are enough to act as a trigger.
What I am trying to say is that I am not trying to draw a link to answer something like example only here....One of the side effects of MMR is T1D, but rather something like such and such virus in quantities as small as such and such may be powerful enough to trigger T1D in those with markers for the disease.
I hope that makes more sense to everyone. I apologize if my earlier posts seemed to try to link the vaccines as opposed to the virus in vaccines.
My doc today told me that my kids can have the Hep A vaccine (which is routine now, but not when they were younger). I told her I would have them do it, but wanted to test them to see if they have markers first.
I am actually thinking of holding off any shots until I do the testing so that I can then try to establish a link...knowing of course that even with markers not all viruses will trigger a reaction, but at least it will be more data than less. And of course I wouldn't opt out of vaccines that are key altogether to try to prevent a trigger because the following week a simple cold may trigger it anyway if you know what I mean. I would at least like to know if they have the markers first though this way if they do develop it shortly after a vaccine I can make a more definitive, although not totally conclusive, link. None of mine are soon due with the MMR one or the other big ones yet and Hep A is one that can be delayed a bit.
This has been studied and, I believe, the answer is "No".
It also has every other ailment listed as well.. did you read down to the bottom where it says
suspected is the key word here.. YOU can report whatever you want, they don't even ask for 'proof' of the event taking place.. Its not just a physician that can report adverse events, its anyone.. and they record everything..
According to VAERS, Type 1 isn't even a reportable 'adverse reaction' which means, they don't consider it to be caused by the MMR. The adverse reactions that are required to be reported are; chronic arthritis (within 24hours), any acute complication (including death) anaphylaxis, ecnephalopathy,(both accuring within 7 days) or encephalities (has to occur with 15 days).. Thrombocytopenic purpura (7-30 days) vaccine-strain measles viral infection in an immunodeficient recipient (6months.).. It also says the events described in the manufactures package insert, these have no limits and can be reported at anytime.. so, someone somewhere developed type 1 after they received the MMR shot.. could have been 2 days later, or it could have been a year later.
Basically if I recieved a booster shot of the MMR today, and tomorrow I developed the hiccups, I could call up VAERS and tell them that I had a adverse event from the MMR, I developed the hiccups, and they'd HAVE to record it.
The answer is not "No". The answer is that no conclusive evidence has been found. The fact remains that the medical field is still speculating on a cause. The literature does not say "T1D is known to be triggered by a virus" it says "A possible trigger is believed to be a virus". You can't establish a conclusive link between vaccines and T1D if you can't conclusively say a virus is responsible for triggering T1D...but you also can't say you can't because you still don't know if a virus is a trigger therefore you can't study the 'amount' of virus or the 'type' of virus to discount it as a trigger.
Some people are color blind, but the truth still remains that there are other colors out there in the spectrum that they can't see. Science is a matter of believing there is something there even when those that can't see it tell you there is not. Inquiring about something out of curiosity does not imply the inquirer is trying to talk down or discourage vaccines, or even to come to conclusions, but rather to open the doors of possibilities so that she does not continue to be blind. PS. the inquirer is a scientist which is why she thinks the way she does.
I just wanted to add that I think that its very normal and natural to try and find out why To seek answers, to know why our kids got type 1 diabetes. And I dont think that there is anything wrong with that. For searching and asking questions and reading. The only harm from any of it would be the self blame that some people have because they didnt breast feed or they vaccinated, didnt vaccinate, gave solid foods too early or not early enough, didnt have Vitamin D levels checked, etc, etc. I got caught up in that and its a painful, useless exercise. But curiosity and trying to see if there are correlations and connections is something many parents do in the first few months or a year after diagnosis with any chronic, incurable disease
I respectfully disagree.
What the "cause" or the "trigger" is is irrelevant.
I can comfortably say "No" because of the fact is that there is no statistically significant increase in cases of T1D when given the MMR vaccine meaning, whatever the cause or trigger, one is no more likely to contract T1D after getting the vaccine. The difference that makes no difference is no difference.
Yes that is true...I think we have all wondered what caused this.
I think there is another risk, aside from the blame game. It is the risk of making an inccorrect link, and taking action based on that incorrect link that could be harmful to themselves or others.
The problem with T1D in this regard is that 1st you would have to have the markers which means MMR or any other virus or vaccine would not cause it, but rather trigger it. 2nd, unlike the other possible side effects or adverse reactions people would be showing and reporting from the time of administration to possibly only a couple of weeks after that. Once time has passed not many would think to link a rash in their rear to a shot they received on an arm months prior. The immune system does not self destruct in a week or two therefore T1D dx would probably not be reported as an adverse reaction to a vaccine. Lastly, a dx'g doc does not ask 'have you had any vaccines lately or any virus injected into you', rather they ask have you had any illnesses in the last couple of month.
If it was listed as a possible side effect anyone that developed T1D (even years after an initial shot) would report it as an adverse reaction. There is no known link or relation therefore it can't be reported unless we have some concrete evidence, such as known markers, isolated exposure, multiple cases....there are too many other variables in the air otherwise.
It is also well known that there are certain areas, certain cities even, that have higher incidences of T1D than other places...even in that situation we haven't been able to establish a link. Do these people get an extra shot? Do they use a specific chemical in their pool, do they all shop for the same apples? etc
The case of vaccines is an interesting one though because it may be an easier way to link a virus to a trigger than just asking someone if they were ill recently, you can even establish a timeline this way. Fact is many onsets happen about puberty, but that is also a time for boosters.....this fact was what prompted my initial thought a few weeks back when I called to make the kids appointments.
Please see the links to the science here:
I've organized the relevant science on that page.
Separate names with a comma.