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Vaccines

Discussion in 'Other Hot Topics' started by Becky Stevens mom, May 10, 2010.

  1. Becky Stevens mom

    Becky Stevens mom Approved members

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    I put this here in Hot topics because, well, it seems to be a hot topic. I will state my opinions here and some links for others to look through if they so desire.

    I feel that vaccines are a part of living in a society where people are living closely with each other and leaving their homes on a regular basis whether to go to school or work or out to the grocery store. At these places they and their children are exposed to other peoples germs, viruses, bacteria, etc. I also feel that children in public schools need to get vaccinated for certain things to protect the other children that they come in contact with. I remember my Mother telling me stories about not being allowed in public swimming areas due to the fear of polio. Ive seen pictures of children in iron lungs.

    This being said I have always thought that we are bombarding our children with vaccines often soon after leaving the womb such as with Hep B vaccine. During the first 2 years of life children can receive up to 15 shots or more. My children during their first 2 years were immunized against: Hep B, DPT, HIB, polio, MMR, and Varicella. It is my opinion that this may in fact overwhelm the immature immune system.

    Now this is just MY opinions of course. Its very difficult to do studies on any of this as there is no way of proving it. You can vaccinate mice with HIB for instance and they will develop type 1 diabetes. That does not mean that human beings will also get type 1 from being vaccinated with HIB. Some children may develop autism after being vaccinated for MMR but its difficult to prove that the MMR vaccine caused the autism. We need to look at all the pieces to the diabetes puzzle. There is more then one cause or trigger, probably many, many more. If you havent read the book by Dan Hurley "Diabetes rising" You really should. His research is startling to say the least.

    Here are some links about vaccines:

    http://www.healing-arts.org/children/vaccines/

    http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/healthy/vaccines/028.html

    http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/vfc/default.htm

    http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/immunizations/vaccine.html

    Disclaimer: I in no way would ever discourage anyone from getting their child vaccinated. This is something that needs to be discussed carefully with your childs healthcare provider. This post and any that follow are peoples opinions only and should not take the place of a serious conversation with ones healthcare provider about vaccines and vaccinating
     
  2. swellman

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    I think it's important to note that the evidence is pretty overwhelming that there is no link between MMR and autism. I doubt there will ever be a definitive study to falsify the hypothesis that the vaccine does cause autism as we would never inject children with the expressed intent to cause the trigger. However, if there was truly a link, the various, and numerous, studies on the subject would have found some statistical evidence.

    I haven't read Diabetes Rising but since it's been mentioned a few times in these forums in the context of an authoritative source I am going to order it today. Here is A Critique of Diabetes Rising.
     
  3. AlisonKS

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    This book has been real helpful for me, I often go back to it! Sometimes I have a hard time trusting doctors, especially since one told me Tony's lack of vaccines caused his diabetes or when a pediatrician told me that mercury is "good" for our bodies. Still trying to find that perfect pediatrician for my kids! Fortunately the one we have now doesn't bug us about our delaying it but the nurse reminds us everytime-I just don't like him cause he seems weirded out by breastfeeding. I told him since he moved back to Oregon he better get used to more of that:p So anyways, it's hard for me to discuss with a healthcare provider because a lot seem so extreme!
     
  4. Lisa P.

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    Thanks for bringing this over here. Good idea.
     
  5. Christopher

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    Maybe this will help some people here feel a little better about vaccines....then again, maybe not...;)

    FDA: Vaccine Makers Should Prepare for More Advanced Screening

    The FDA is advising vaccine manufacturers to be ready for the findings of more sensitive analytical detection methods as it prepares to receive advice this week on applying such methods. Advanced screening techniques use nonspecific means to gather a large amount of data, Karen Midthun, acting CBER director, said at the 2010 Biotechnology Industry Organization International Convention. "The more sensitive the techniques one has ... the more likely one may be to find things," and the FDA and industry need to be prepared for the findings, she said.
     
  6. KHM

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    Framework for evaluating evidence on causality of adverse vaccine reactions

    It is impossible to prove that a cause-effect relationship does NOT exist between any two factors of interest; doing so would require evaluation of every single iteration of possible combinations and there is no way to even know what all of those combinations are, much less hold them up for scrutiny.

    This is why scientific studies all proceed from a "null hypothesis"-- that what is being tested has no effect on the condition of interest. In doing so, we're able to say yea/nay the null hypothesis seems true most of the time or seems true only rarely. For consideration of all here, please do become familiar with the basic scientific criteria for use in establishing whether a cause-effect relationship exists as established by Bradford and Hill in 1965:


    1. Strength: A small association does not mean that there is not a causal effect, though the larger the association, the more likely that it is causal.
    2. Consistency: Consistent findings observed by different persons in different places with different samples strengthens the likelihood of an effect.
    3. Specificity: Causation is likely if a very specific population at a specific site and disease with no other likely explanation. The more specific an association between a factor and an effect is, the bigger the probability of a causal relationship.
    4. Temporality: The effect has to occur after the cause (and if there is an expected delay between the cause and expected effect, then the effect must occur after that delay).
    5. Biological gradient: Greater exposure should generally lead to greater incidence of the effect. However, in some cases, the mere presence of the factor can trigger the effect. In other cases, an inverse proportion is observed: greater exposure leads to lower incidence.
    6. Plausibility: A plausible mechanism between cause and effect is helpful (but Hill noted that knowledge of the mechanism is limited by current knowledge).
    7. Coherence: Coherence between epidemiological and laboratory findings increases the likelihood of an effect. However, Hill noted that "... lack of such [laboratory] evidence cannot nullify the epidemiological effect on associations" .
    8. Experiment: "Occasionally it is possible to appeal to experimental evidence" .
    9. Analogy: The effect of similar factors may be considered.
    The criteria lacking toward accepting claims of vaccine effect in causing many of the adverse attributed to them by concerned parents fall in these categories: analogy, coherence, plausibility, biological gradient, experiment (or laboratory evidence) and consistency.

    The scientific method is fundamentally flawed by the requirement of the null hypothesis BUT... if a cause-effect relationship were to exist such as the claim regarding MMR and autism, it should be possible to assemble and organize a more compelling case series than has been accomplished to date.

    And hoping not to start a fire storm here, it would be dishonest to deny that part of the policy analysis regarding scheduling of vaccines includes cost-benefit evaluations. Thus far, vaccines have made far, far more positive impact at the population level than negative impact at either the population or individual level.
     
  7. Lee

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    Honestly, I get very irritated by people who don't vaccinate. We vaccinate to not just protect our children, but to protect our society from mass-disease. So leaving it up to everyone else to protect your children from illness is, in my opinion, immoral.


    Edited to change to correct Vaccine - sorry I got it wrong the first time Sue.

    Now, I am a major proponent for spacing out the vaccines, as well as knowing what the you are vaccinating for. My oldest cannot get the DTaP vaccine due to Pertussis (whooping cough) being linked to seizures. As her mom, I am responsible to know that they now add a more aggressive form of pertussis to TDap, which was introduced in 2005 and is more likely to cause seizures in recipients that have a prior seizure history. So, prior to vaccination time, I have to research!

    Also, when it comes to voluntary vaccinations - like HPV - I research it. My main problem with this vaccine is they want to start giving it at 12, and it it is only good for 10 years, so that means another round at 22. I know young girls have sex at 12, but my dr never told me of the 10 yr rule. I had to ask about it and choose to delay this vaccine until she is closer to sexual activity.

    So, while I am in favor of vaccines, and honestly think we have a moral obligation, I am also a big proponent for delayed vaccines - spacing them out - and empowering yourself by knowing what the vaccines are for.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
  8. sammysmom

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    Nicely said.
     
  9. thebestnest5

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    Just want to add since emotion can not be seen...I type this with respect for your opinion.

    I am not as convicting in my opinion of other's choices and glad that I have a choice to research and only give the vaccines that I feel appropriate (along with our pediatrician's advice).

    End of 2009, It was reported that President Obama refused the H1N1 vaccine for his two daughters.
     
  10. SueM

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    Honestly, I get irritated by people who seem to want to butt into my business about how/when I choose to vaccinate my children. I have done a good amount of research on the topic and vaccines aren't all butterflies and lollipops. :eek: To call people "immoral" for making a decision (based upon research) which differs from your own beliefs ... is just nonsense.

    What's fascinating is that you then go on to talk about how you agree with spacing out some vaccines, etc.... which I agree with. Now, you do realize that there may be some people who would consider that to be "immoral" or "dangerous"... God forbid you go against the recommendations of the almighty CDC.... I think that it's probably a good idea to keep the "immoral" talk out of the discussion.

    As for the discussion about your daughter... frankly, it doesn't make any sense to me. As far as I know, the mmr (measles, mumps, rubella) shot never contained anything for Pertussis... So, your comment is confusing. It's also somewhat confusing that you don't seem to know anything about the DTaP shot - which would be the shot that contained the Pertussis portion of the vaccine and which always has.... so the concept that they are now adding it to a different vaccine is just wrong.

    Let me add... do you realize how it could be a bit frustrating to a person who has researched vaccines for years now to be told that they are somehow "immoral" if they make different choices in vaccinating by someone who... well, frankly doesn't seem all that literate in the topic. I'm just sayin'....
     
  11. swellman

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    When one's voluntarily un-vaccinated child gets another vaccinated child, with a failed immune response, or a medically required un-vaccinated child sick it is no longer just one's business. Unless one lives in isolation one's vaccination decisions affect those around one. I think this is the morality Lee was alluding to.
     
  12. SueM

    SueM Banned

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    My main obligation is to the health of my own children. If I believe that vaccines may trigger life long autoimmune problems and/or neurological problems (as I do), then the health of my own children will always be my main concern. Who speaks for those injured by vaccines? Certainly NOT the medical community. They are always seen as an unfortunate result of "herd immunity". Not in my world....
     
  13. swellman

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    Do you feel this way about all vaccines , a majority or just a select few?
     
  14. Karenwith4

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    Moving this over from another thread

    Sorry still scratching my head. It either works at 95% or it works at 70% in preventing infection. And how can it be assessed that the vaccine prevents "severe" infection by allows minor infection? My kids weren't vaccinated and they avoided "severe" infection. Too many variables to determine that the vaccine is responsible. The fact of the matter is that it has limited effectiveness that wears off over time.


    I did expose them to the virus on purpose. In doing that I "gave" them the opportunity to develop lifelong immunity from catching the CP strain again and likely immunity from ever catching it again at all. I gave it to them at a time when their bodies are least likely to be detrimentally affected by it. And I gave it to them without injecting them with chemicals etc.

    The vaccine gives partial short-term immunity.

    "Wild" infections are more likely to be more closely matched to the possibly mutating strain than the "artificially grown" version of the virus which was developed for the vaccine about what - 20 years ago?

    So does that make it immoral for you to give your kids the vaccine because it means you are increasing the potential for harm for others and in fact for your own children? :p

    With respect to the flu, as we saw with H1N1, those who were 55+ and had had exposure to certain wild strains of the flu disease were much better off (immunologically speaking) in terms of their bodies having appropriate antibodies to fight the mutating flu strains.

    The immoral comment upthread is unnecessarily inflammatory and offers little to advance the discussion.

    And Sue - nice post!
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  15. swellman

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    I found this worded differently.

    Research has shown 1-dose chickenpox vaccine to be 70-90% effective in preventing disease and 95% effective in preventing severe disease. Two doses of vaccine were 99% effective in preventing disease in children in clinical
    trials. Varicella vaccine is also very safe. The most common side effects are mild and may include pain and redness at the injection site. A mild rash may develop. As with any medicine, there are very small risks that serious problems could occur after getting the vaccine. However, the potential risks associated with varicella disease are much greater than the potential risks associated with the varicella vaccine.
     
  16. swellman

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    I'm not following you but ... I see this below and I think "I can't roll those dice."

    ___________________________________________________________

    http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/exposure-parties/chickenpox-parties

    Risks of Chickenpox Parties


    • Varicella (chickenpox) is an infection caused by the varicella-zoster virus (VZV).
    • Varicella is generally a mild disease which causes several days of fever and very itchy rash.
    • Varicella is highly contagious.
    • A child will often get 300 to 500 blisters during the infection, but can have up to 1500; these crust over and fall off in one to two weeks.
    • Varicella can be severe and even fatal in otherwise healthy children (but less than 1 out of every 10,000 cases).
    • Chickenpox can cause pneumonia (23 out of every 10,000 cases)
    • Bacterial infections of the blisters (usually impetigo) occur commonly (up to 5% of cases).
    • Chickenpox is an important risk factor for severe invasive group A streptococcal disease, which can be fatal.
    • Other complications of varicella include decreased platelets, arthritis, hepatitis, and brain inflammation.
    • Complications are more common among adolescents and adults.
    • In immunocompromised persons of all ages, varicella may be fatal.
    • The virus which causes chickenpox remains in the body for life and may reappear as shingles, particularly in the elderly.
    • A woman who contracts chickenpox in early pregnancy can pass the virus to her fetus, causing abnormalities in 2% of cases.

    Risks of the Vaccine


    • Varicella vaccine is a live, attenuated virus vaccine.
    • Most people who get the vaccine have no side effects.
    • A very mild rash or several small bumps (between 2 and 6) can result in about 1% to 4% of vaccine recipients.
    • In children, the vaccine does not cause fever.
    • In adults, the vaccine may cause a mild fever 2 weeks after vaccination.
    • A seizure (jerking and staring spell) usually caused by fever may occur in less than 1 in 1000 vaccine recipients. This may not be related to the vaccine.
    • The vaccine virus, like the wild-type virus, remains in the body and can return to cause shingles. Current evidence suggests that this occurs less commonly with vaccine virus then after natural infection.
    • Immunocompromised children should not receive the vaccine, such as children with leukemia.
     
  17. Becky Stevens mom

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    As I said in my original post that started this thread. If people choose to live in society and be able to move freely in public I do believe it is their responsibility to do all in their power to keep other people safe from harm. This is the same idea as a child who is sick being kept away from others for a certain amount of time

    If on the other hand people choose to live hundreds of miles away from others say in the wilderness of Alaska and homeschool their kids, never bring them to a store or restaurant then by all means dont bother with the vaccines.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  18. SueM

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    I believe that all vaccines can do harm (to a small number of people). Some vaccines may be worse than others. I think that it is naive to think otherwise. So, the more vaccines given... the more chance of injuring people. That's just common sense. So, I don't understand the reason for the increasing number of vaccines given. Remember, I believe in a downside of vaccines. In other words, my opinion would be different if I believed that vaccines were as safe as the claims... I simply don't.

    If it's true that vaccines can trigger autism, type 1 diabetes, SIDS, etc... (which I believe it is...) then, can you see why I would have a problem with the vaccine schedule as recommended today? I understand how you may think differently... but do you see where I might be coming from? It's a matter of differing opinions.
     
  19. SueM

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    If you are so concerned, why don't you go to live hundreds of miles away from others in the wilderness of Alaska? :cool:

    Just kidding. Sort of.
     
  20. swellman

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    I believe that every vaccine carries some risk is a fact. Each vaccine has it's own risks vs benefits. I agree that with increased vaccinations there is an increased risk of vaccine injury although not cumulatively so. I also believe they are as safe as claimed by the FDA, CDC and AAP. I believe, for the majority of vaccines, the benefits far outweighs the risk of vaccine injury. I am not convinced that every vaccine is necessary.

    I believe it has been more than adequately determined that the MMR vaccine does not trigger autism. I believe believing otherwise is irrational - perhaps even delusional. I can't comment with the same enthusiasm about a causal effect on diabetes or SIDS - not because I believe there's merit in that belief only because I haven't looked at whether there are any specific studies to address these.

    So, yes, I can understand why one might have this opinion if one thought that vaccinations, as a rule, were more dangerous than claimed. It would be irrational to fear them without caring about the effects. What I find puzzling is why one would believe they are so much more risky than they really are or why one would think the documented and reported risks are wrong.
     

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