- advertisement -

Study showing vaccinations can cause autoimmunity

Discussion in 'Parents of Children with Type 1' started by Charlotte'sMom, Aug 15, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. swellman

    swellman Approved members

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    3,544
    I'm familiar with this study ... likely is speculative and the seasonal variation isn't the only factor. The bottom line is that they just don't know ... it could be exposure to coal burning emissions due to increased electrical production during the winter months.
     
  2. swellman

    swellman Approved members

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    3,544
    Thank you.
     
  3. wilf

    wilf Approved members

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2007
    Messages:
    9,652
    From the same article:
    "Most initial autoantibodies appear during the cold period in the fall and winter but rarely in the spring or in the summer."

    I would just point out that this period coincides with the time of least sunlight and thus minimal production of Vitamin D.

    Population studies have also shown that Type 1 D is most prevalent in high latitude countries with long winters with little sunlight, and is least prevalent in countries closer to the equator.
     
  4. Cookie Monster

    Cookie Monster Approved members

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    131
    Firstly I commend the OP for trying to answer her question by looking at the published science.

    Unfortunately I think the original paper has used a poor choice of words, particularly immunised. To be fair English is not their first language and I assume they use immunise in a literal sense, i.e. provoking an immune response. Sadly this leads to a lot of confusion as we tend to use immunise and vaccinate interchangeably.

    They have injected a toxin (SEB). They have not used any type of vaccine. The reason they have used this toxin is that it is a superantigen, a toxin that provokes a strong immune response. Their aim was to show that repeated exposure to a toxin/antigen can stimulate the immune response to such an extent that autoimmunity occurs.

    Why? Because they think that repeated exposure to bacteria or viruses may result in autoimmune disease through this repeated stimulation of the immune response. The repeated injection of toxin is meant to simulate repeated exposure to bacteria or viruses.

    Rather than warning against vaccination this study actually supports vaccination as this would prevent the repeated exposure to the toxins/antigens produced by the bacteria or viruses. At the end of the discussion they describe a group of Japanese children who were not vaccinated against measles as being constantly exposed to antigens, hence at greater risk of this overstimulation of the immune response.
     
  5. TheFormerLantusFiend

    TheFormerLantusFiend Approved members

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    4,925
    The only way to transmit type 1 diabetes is through bone marrow donation. If somebody got just the amount of diabetes antibodies present in a unit of my blood, it's not gonna do much. If somebody got my bone marrow, which makes those antibodies, they could get enough antibodies over enough time to get type 1 diabetes. About a third of people who've gotten bone marrow transplants from type 1 diabetics on record have gone on to develop type 1 diabetes.

    It seems to me that some vaccinations, especially given over and over, have an effect like being sick- they charge up the immune system. And that'll trigger autoimmunity. Don't get vaccines while you're sick (bad practice anyways, because the body is less likely to develop an immunity if you do), and maybe space 'em out, especially if you're the sort that runs a fever afterwards.
     
  6. Charlotte'sMom

    Charlotte'sMom Approved members

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,215
    You bring up an interesting point, and this also weighs heavily on my mind. According the immunization chart on my fridge, a child should be getting 25 shots of 9 different vaccines before age 2, and several of those are multiple vaccines in one shot like the MMR and Dtap. That doesn't include the annual flu shot which is now pushed starting at 6 months. No child is going to naturally encounter that many different diseases all before they they turn 2. I worry about the effect of that many vaccines in such a short amount of time. The current recommended vaccine schedule gets heavier and heavier as they add more vaccines to the list. I often get accused of not being old enough to remember the horrors of polio and that's why I don't appreciate the good vaccines have done for our health. But I don't have a problem with the polio vaccine. I have a problem with 25+ shots in less than 2 years in a child who weighs 8-25 pounds.

    I appreciate all the comments on the article and has helped me understand this better . With one autoimmune disease in our family, naturally I worry about my children developing more. I think this is all one very large, complex puzzle, and one we'll probably never figure out all the pieces to. But I guess when I read things like this it doesn't sound like such a stretch to think that maybe overwhelming our children's immune systems with vaccines might play some role in the drastic rise in autoimmune diseases. FTR, I don't believe vaccines caused Charlotte's diabetes as technically she was undervaccinated at dx, but I worry more because I already know her immune system went haywire once and I can't help but feel like I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
     
  7. sheeboo

    sheeboo Approved members

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    140
    There's an interesting bit of research from Finland that showed an increase in T1 diagnoses in children with a pre-disposition whose HiB vaccinations were delayed and spread out, instead of being received at birth. The link I posted is for one of the only places I was able to find the study in freely-accesible fulltext. It's been published in other forms, in seemingly more stringent peer-reviewd journals

    FTR, the author John Classen has some potential credibility issues. I did not investigate any of the claims on this website, nor who sponsors/writes it.

    There are a few more linked resources on the Diabetes and Environment blog, which from what my non-scientifically trained mind can tell, is a relatively objective collection of research.
     
  8. Charlotte'sMom

    Charlotte'sMom Approved members

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,215

    The first link is talking about the HepB vaccine, which is different from the Hib. I have different issues with giving a newborn (who isn't at risk) a vaccine for an STD when there are known side effects to the vaccine. That's one vaccine I feel especially safe postponing until the child is bigger.

    Regardless, that first link (or the 3rd that mentioned the Hib vaccine) doesn't make me feel any better. Remember, my concern has to do with the overall effect of 25 vaccines (and more throughout childhood), not just the individual effect of one. In my mind, the reason kids are less likely to develop an AI disease or suffer from a vaccine reaction given at birth would be more likely due to the fact that their overall vaccine load is still low. And with the way I already feel about vaccines, pushing for a vaccine to be given at birth vs later just because of the small risk they'll develop T1D goes against everything my "mommy gut" is telling me.

    I hate to even type this out b/c I'm sure I'll get flamed-- but you can manipulate statistics to say what you what them to say. I'm sure both sides of the vaccine argument do it. However, studies like the one I posted originally give me more pause-- because when you are talking about cells and how the body responds to certain chemicals or stimuli, that's a lot different than saying "we did a study and we did/didn't find a correlation between the two." Not to say there isn't any value in a statistical study. I know there can be. I'm just saying...
     
  9. Lee

    Lee Approved members

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2006
    Messages:
    9,633
    I guess I don't understand why you keep seeking validation to your anti-vaccination opinion? I think Cookie Monster really did a good job breaking the original article down - this is not about vaccines.

    Luckily, we all have free will here in America at least. And we can choose to give all the vaccinations, some of them, or none of them. For me, I am a believer in spacing them out over giving them all at once. Ironically, the child that I did this with is the one the got Type 1...
     
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Approved members

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,771
    I agree with you that statistics can be manipulated/misinterpreted. However, even after all the intelligent, rational discussion on this thread showing that you have little to worry about you are still worried? I think some people just need things to worry about (I don't mean that in a bad way). But it seems like no matter what anyone says here you are going to worry. So I guess all I will say is good luck.
     
  11. sheeboo

    sheeboo Approved members

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    140
    It wasn't posted to help you feel better; it was posted to add to the objective conversation you stated you were hoping to have here.

    As I understand the hypothesis, it is not that the vaccine load is lower at birth (although clearly that is true too) which lessens the chances for the child to develop T1D, it is that something is carried over from the mother's own immunity still being present in the newborn that acts as a protectant during vaccinations. (Admittedly, I haven't re-read the articles I posted, so that may be coming from elsewhere.).

    Anecdotally, the same thing happened in our family. Our dd's first vaccination was after she weaned at 28-months. The vaccines she did receive were given individually over the course of many months-years, and she's never been vaccinated for Hep B. or Hemophilus influenza B.
     
  12. GaPeach

    GaPeach Approved members

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,218
    Disclaimer: I do not oppose vaccinations. I do not believe all auto-immune diseases stem from vaccines.

    However, I camp of the side of caution. I do believe that research needs to continue to discover more about the complex issues between autoimmune reactions and triggers. Once the immune system is compromised - only further research will determine long-term potential effects and precautions.

    While I am not old enough to remember, my father was a polio victim. Because of this family medical history our pediatrician WOULD NOT allow any of my children to receive the live vaccine. Years later, the live vaccine was eliminated as the standard version of vaccination. I'm glad I followed my pedi's advice.

    My 6 children span 16 years. The number of vaccines for the older ones compared to the younger ones is significantly different. All have been immunized. Child #4 had a severe reaction to the MMR and her pedi delayed the timeline for future vaccines. He even delayed the HepC in spite of a family dx of HepC stemming from a blood transfusion. Same pedi would not start any of child#5 vaccines until she was 9 months old. She had battled constant eye infections. He did not want to compromise her immune system with vaccines while her body was already fighting infections.

    My daughter has decided to space out her son's vaccines. She researched on her own to make a decision.

    I understand the OP is pondering whether or not an autoimmune compromised individual should have additional caution in regards to future vaccines. Also, she wondered about donating blood.

    There are no real answers to these questions. Any current protocal could readily change (i.e - polio live vaccine). People undergoing chemo (a chemical assault on the body) are advised to not be around people recently vaccinated. So, there must be some reason for at least a little concern.

    It is an area that will continue to be debated.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  13. MamaC

    MamaC Approved members

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    5,292
    My son donates blood, regularly.
     
  14. emm142

    emm142 Approved members

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    6,883
    As an aside, people with T1 may not donate blood in the UK.
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Approved members

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,771
    Actually there are: There is no solid evidence that vaccines have anything to do with Type 1 diabetes and also it is fine if people with diabetes want to donate blood. :cwds:

    (ETA: In the USA) :eek:
     
  16. Beach bum

    Beach bum Approved members

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
    Messages:
    11,315
    Interesting. Is there a specific reason why?
     
  17. GaPeach

    GaPeach Approved members

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2007
    Messages:
    2,218
    I believe that there is conflicting data and articles.

    When my young grandson was recently vaccinated with the MMR, the literature given his mother that was provided by the manufacturer of the vaccine STILL lists diabetes as a potential side effect. Wonder why they still report that if there is no solid evidence.

    Not arguing here - I believe in vaccines. I just do not believe that all facts are known. Time reveals much.

    And yes, diabetes does not prevent donation of blood. :) My husband has pernicious anemia(auto-immune disease). It does prevent him from donating. :( If you have recently had vaccinations, it varies from immediately eligible to 56 days.
     
  18. emm142

    emm142 Approved members

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    6,883
    Nope. The dividing line is whether or not you take insulin (i.e. no type 1 may donate, but type 2s who are not on insulin are allowed to). I've asked numerous people what the reason is, and I've had answers ranging from "because you take injectable medication and could get an infection from a needle" to "because your blood sugar may drop too low as a result". :confused: Who knows. I wish I could donate, though. It frustrates me that there is a donor shortage, but people are being told that they can't donate for no clear reason.
     
  19. sooz

    sooz Approved members

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,330
    I was only using polio as an example of a disease that has been eliminated by vaccines. Substitute any disease for polio. Would you prefer that your child get small pox? Die from whooping cough? Give birth to a child with birth defects that could have been prevented if the carrier had been vaccinated against rubella? Let me ask this, if there were a vaccine for type 1 diabetes would you give it to your children? You say your child had not received any vaccines before their diabetes Dx. Isn't there enough to worry about with type 1 without fixating on vaccines? I stand by my statement that the benefits of vaccines far outweigh the risks. Instead of looking for research articles that may or may not validate your vaccine theory, take some time to look up the diseases that those vaccines have protected us from. Start with birth defects and rubella, move to small pox. I will start you off with polio. Scroll through the photos of iron lungs that will give you a sense of what living through an epidemic was like.

    http://www.google.com/search?q=iron...l=en&client=safari#biv=i|13;d|Aq1jLW8zqP2nTM:
     
  20. Lisa P.

    Lisa P. Approved members

    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    Messages:
    5,380
    It seems to me that this study is of interest in that if accurate it shows an actual specific link between something entering the body and an autoimmune reaction similar to that with autoimmune disease. That seems to have wider implications than vaccines. I was under the impression that folks assume that an environmental factor not naturally occurring could trigger autoimmune problems but that a causative relationship had never specifically been found.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

- advertisement -

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice