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Extending the Honeymoon/Looking for an Endo

Discussion in 'Parents of Children with Type 1' started by Mellaril, Aug 17, 2012.

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  1. Christopher

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    No one is saying just take insulin and don't change anything else. We all are painfully aware of the lifestyle changes this disease creates.

    I was taught that people with diabetes can eat like other people, they just need to cover the carbs they eat with insulin. I believe that is a more healthy, modern approach. Diet restriction was something that was recommended in the "old days" of diabetes management.

    No one here is saying there people can do whatever they want and there are no consequences. That is just silly.

    Very dramatic, but again, no one is saying your children will be scarred for life. They may be resentful, and act out later in life or develop eating disorders, but then again, maybe not. But I am not sure how restricting bread and sugar in your other children is helping your child who has diabetes?

    There are many ways to teach children these important lessons other than restricting their diet.

    Again, no one here is telling their children that. We all are VERY aware that life is not fair. You do realize you are talking to parents of children who have an incurable, chronic disease, right?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  2. wilf

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    This was more a proclamation than a response.. :cwds:
     
  3. ChristineJ

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    Help maintain health and possibly slow the pancreas' demise. A pancreas that's failing, whether from autoimmune attack as in T1 or overwork/overproduction as in T2, will likely fail faster the more it's stressed. I've seen the theory expressed, here and elsewhere, that the autoimmune attack intensifies as a result of the higher insulin production that results from taking in more carbs. More carbs=more insulin needed=more target for the antibodies. Similarly, in a pancreas that's failing due to overwork/overproduction, more carbs=more overwork=faster cell death. IMO, easing the pancreas' burden by modifying carb intake (therefore giving the failing pancreas less work to do) can only be a help. :)

    Christine
     
  4. wilf

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    It would really be good if people could try to keep Type 2 concepts out of discussions of Type 1 diabetes. They are very different illnesses that require very different responses.

    I will rewrite the "equations" which have been presented here so that they are rational and applicable in a Type 1 context:

    1) more carbs=more insulin needed=give more insulin :)

    2) more insulin=less overwork=slower cell death :)

    There is nothing virtuous about reducing carb intake (and thus reducing the amount of insulin a child gets) when you're dealing with Type 1 diabetes. But what it can do is set a child up for a lifetime of complexes and disorders when it comes to food.
     
  5. ChristineJ

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    If you look back, prior to my first response in this thread, Type 2 diabetes was introduced into the discussion with mention of clarifying the Type 1 diagnosis for this particular child. This particular child is NOT on insulin. So while your equations above may be applicable in the context of a Type 1 child on insulin, my contribution to the discussion IMO is applicable to this particular child at this point in time.

    The OP's child may very well be in the early stages of Type 1. It's not unheard of, however, for mis-diagnosis to occur. When the discussion moved in the direction of diagnosis clarification, I added some information from the perspective of a parent whose child was misdiagnosed. Twice.:cwds:

    Christine
     
  6. C6H12O6

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    Also, by definition it is not really a honeymoon period if insulin therapy was never initiated. So calling this a honeymoon is a misnomer in this case.
     
  7. Lakeman

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    If your son is growing and thriving then 20-30 g of carbs is plenty. He can get all the other energy he needs from healthy fats and he can get all the building blocks he needs from protein. In fact, a person cannot survive at all without fat and protein they are both essential nutrients but carbs are not essential at all. That being said many vegetables are great sources of nutritious things and are a healthy part of a good diet. I do not agree that a diet with the amount of carbs you are giving is either physically or necessarily psychologically unhealthy. If he is growing fine and has access to the nutrients he needs then it is not physically unhealthy and if you all are happy with your diet then it is not psychologically unhealthy. The standard american (SAD) diet is far more likely to be physically and psychologically unealthy. No one wants to be the oddball who eats differently but lets face it - these days most people eat differently for one reason or another so that eating differently is actually the norm and being different is good when your peers are metaphorical lemmings. In our house we eat very very little wheat which all by itself makes it pretty easy to eat way less carbs, we also eat less grains in general and therefore do not eat a lot of carbs as a byproduct that I consider to be good. My kids eat lots of fruits and vegetables though I myself limit fruits for me.

    We were told at diagnoses that a t1d could eat anything that any other person SHOULD eat. IMO, 100 carbs per meal is unhealthy for anyone and sets people up for high tryglycerides and other health ailments. Furthermore, the cholesterol found in meats and fats is of no great concern for most people. Additionally, IMO, wheat and any other seed based food is also not what humans are designed to eat and taking these mostly out of your diet will only result in better health.

    I would ask "Why extend the honeymoon?" if you are wanting to take advantage of some cure that may depend on working beta cells then that is a long shot but I totally understand it and would probably do the same thing. If you are trying to maintain the other functions of beta cells (like amylin production) then that is a good but small thing. But just avoiding insulin for the sake of avoiding insulin seems counterproductive.

    There are plenty of t1d's who eat a very low carb (much lower than yours) diet and therefore do not take a lot of insulin. If one eats lower carbs and takes less insulin then that will result in smaller mistakes and tighter control which one poster here said extends beta cell function. If a very low carb diet is right for someone then who am I to object or cast dispersions? I do not know that we could manage it but we are moving in that direction and presently eat less carbs than what is standard.
     
  8. Sarah Maddie's Mom

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    You read a hell of a lot into my comment. But it gave you a convenient spring board. :rolleyes:

    Good luck with your program.
     
  9. nanhsot

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    Fascinating theory actually, though factually untrue. Insulin alone will save their life while carb restriction alone will not. So, factually insulin IS the most important treatment.

    Dramatic statements like this distract from what could really be an important message.

    I also believe that low carb, low GI is the key to good health, for ALL of us. But I also believe that life is fun, life is short, and sometimes eating crap for the sake of the sheer fun of it is important for folks of all shapes, sizes, ages and kinds. Ice cream is simply FUN! Nachos are a personal favorite, with extra jalapenos. Do I think these foods are good to eat daily, regularly, or as a staple. Absolutely not! But I think an occasional splurge make life more full, and that's worth something too.

    I don't recommend anything to my T1 child that I don't also recommend to myself. Eat a nutritionally balanced, wholesome, close to nature diet. I grow lots of our food, bake lots of our bread (and can even grind the grains myself...have made lentils and pinto beans into flour for example), so I'm not just talking, I'm also doing. But if chips enter his mouth every now and then and he needs more insulin because his football team went out for pizza after a game...so be it. Life is much too short to ask him to sit there and eat a salad because he might need too much insulin for that pizza.

    Life isn't fair, there are consequences to our actions, we all sacrifice for the things we want. My kids are taught this very clearly. But I also let them make mistakes and choices. Life or death things like a nut allergy, you bet I'm removing them from my whole home. But telling a teenager he can't eat pizza with his team because he might need more insulin and will likely spike up anyway that one day...nope, I'm going to let him make that choice (and funny thing is that he usually CHOOSES not to eat pizza!).

    Do I believe your children will be scarred for life or otherwise harmed by your choices? I have no idea and furthermore it's none of my business. So the drama in your post (oh the horrors!!) simply detracted from your message.

    Educate, model, enjoy life. It's all about balance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  10. wilf

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    My "equations" were were specifically designed to be applicable to a child who is currently not on insulin but who in my opinion should be getting started.

    Yours simply muddied the water, by introducing Type 2 D concepts into a discussion that they didn't belong into. Moreover, if you feel this child has been misdiagnosed then you should say so in a straightforward manner - rather than provide advice which only makes sense in the event of a misdiagnosis.

    Misdiagnoses are rare, though they do occur. :( It is not a bad idea for OP to get a second opinion, but in the meantime she would be well served to proceed on the assumption that her child's diagnosis is correct. In the highly likely event of a correct diagnosis, insulin is needed - the sooner the better if she wishes to extend her son's honeymoon.
     
  11. Lee

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    I just want to add - 150 carbs a day is the minimum recommended dietary intake for children's brains and bodies to grow.
     
  12. swellman

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    I guess my question is: Is there any evidence that extending the honeymoon or "slowing the pancreas' demise" actually has any effect on health - long or short term?
     
  13. wilf

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    If the honeymoon is a "good" one, then it comes with all sorts of benefits:
    - predictable numbers which are mostly in range
    - few spikes
    - lower A1Cs

    There are certainly health benefits to extending this period if it can be reasonably be done.
     
  14. MomofSweetOne

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    I doubt this is a hard, fast rule. My daughter typically eats between 90 & 140 carbs per day. In the two years since diagnosis, she's gained 40 pounds (from 62) and grown approximately a foot. She's overgrowing the growth charts with a lower carb diet that the SAD. She's gone from the 25%tile for height to the 50% for height. I was told that her body is making up for lost time from when her BGs were higher, and that having her BGs under good control allow her body to grow. To the OP, insulin is a growth hormone, so if your child is running higher, it may affect his growth so keep an eye on that as well. My daughter had not grown for the 6 months prior to diagnosis, nor had she gained weight that year. Her BG was only 250 at diagnosis with an A1C of 11.?, so she'd been running higher for quite a while.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2012
  15. ChristineJ

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    With all due respect, Wilf, I didn't introduce the idea of Type 2, nor am I the only poster supporting the idea of modifying carb intake. Several parents of Type 1 kids, including Lakeman and Nanhsot, posted support of the idea that modifying carb intake can be beneficial, including for those with Type 1.

    Here the OP themselves mentions T2 as part of the discussion.
    I don't "think this child has been mis-diagnosed". I have no way of knowing if the child is mis-diagnosed or not, just as you have no way of knowing for certain that the child is definitely Type 1 or how much pancreatic function is left for this child. Given the information we have in this case, I don't feel it's unreasonable to provide information that may be helpful. The idea that there is more than just Type 1 diabetes in children is a concept not well known or understood for many, including those in the medical community.

    As these two posters indicate, in posts that came before I entered this discussion, we don't have all the information here. They are both inquiring about the factors that were used to make the T1 diagnosis. Notice again the discussion of Type 2, even before I ever posted.

    This post does not just apply to T2. The concepts I discussed are applicable to T1 as well, as evidenced by the mention of autoimmunity. You may not agree with the concept of modified carb intake, but there are certainly others that do. Again, even parents of T1 children have posted in this thread in support of the idea that unrestricted carb intake is not necessarily a good thing.

    I am not in any way stating that insulin should not be started for this child, if the parents and the child's doctor feel it's appropriate. Having said that, like other posters, I do feel modified carbohydrate intake can be a helpful part of anyone's plan for health, especially when abnormal glucose metabolism is a factor. I don't think I "muddied the waters" at all. Information is a powerful tool, and IMO the more information this child's family has, the better.

    While vital for those with Type 1, insulin is not the only piece of the puzzle. Furthermore, mis-diagnosis happens more often than people realize. The only way to achieve recognition that there are other forms of diabetes, even in children, is for those types of diabetes to be discussed.:)

    Christine
     
  16. ChristineJ

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    Additionally, with natural insulin production you have the benefit of c-peptide. C-peptide is felt to have protective and beneficial properties, and is not found in modern insulin analogs.:)

    Christine
     
  17. Lee

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    This is exactly what we experienced for over two years.
     
  18. nanhsot

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    Lee, do you know the age range for this? I would assume that younger children need more, and as growth stabilizes it would level out, but I'm curious if there are age guidelines on carb intake.

    I am personally a big believer in good/wholesome carbs vs any old carb, so I'd rather intake 50 carbs via legumes or fruits than via empty foods, so I think that type of carbs is important to look at as well. Low GI foods are not necessarily low carb.

    I'm a low carb eater myself, but I'm trying to slow my growth!!! My brain, well who knows what's going on up there! :D
     
  19. sheeboo

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    From the Mayo clinic:
    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/nutrition-for-kids/NU00606

    The younger the child, the lower the carbs, although that's representative of total caloric intake.
     
  20. Lee

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