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KitKat
04-16-2010, 08:18 AM
I remember someone stating or a study suggesting Chicken Pox Vac was linked to type 1 diabetes. Does anyone remember this or the site?

Thanks

WendyTT
04-16-2010, 08:23 AM
I've never heard that the vaccine may cause T1--but have a little theory that chicken pox triggered my daughter's T1. She got the pox vaccine, then also got chicken pox--she was diagnosed 6 months after having it. I'm not trying to start a debate about what causes T1, etc etc. I'm sure I'll never know and what good does it do anyway--but have to admit I'll always be curious.

RosemaryCinNJ
04-16-2010, 08:25 AM
Amanda got her chicken pox vaccine after she was diagnosed with type 1. It was actually about 4 months later or so. as well as MMR...she had to get well from being in DKA before she could get these I remember that much..
I would like to read the link too when someone posts it..

Tracy1918
04-16-2010, 08:43 AM
Matthew got his chicken pox booster in August. By the next day, he had a fever and a rash.

Last month he was diagnosed with Type 1.

I will always wonder about that shot.

KitKat
04-16-2010, 09:07 AM
My son received the shot 3 months before being dx'd and he was sick with it within 12 hours from getting it. They are requiring my daughter to get it before going to 6th grade and I don't want her to get it.

Christopher
04-16-2010, 09:17 AM
No one knows what causes Type 1 diabetes. No one will be able to say for sure what (if anything) is linked to it. It is all just speculation.

danismom79
04-16-2010, 09:19 AM
My daughter got her 2nd dose 7 months before showing D symptoms. She'd gotten the 1st dose (back before they knew kids would need a 2nd) 7 years prior.

Jilleighn
04-16-2010, 09:35 AM
Loren was DX with D before she even got the chicken pox Vac, She should have gotten it like at 12 or 15 months, but we delayed it along with the MMR. Loren was Dx at 18months and got the chicken pox vac at 24 months

Denise
04-16-2010, 09:43 AM
Molly had the chicken pox vaccine as a toddler and got her booster AFTER she was dx'd. My other three have all had both the vaccine and the booster with no issue..yet

lmf1122
04-16-2010, 09:58 AM
Samantha got the chicken pox and dTap vaccines about 6 months before she started wetting the bed and developing other symptoms, with no other illness or virus during that time. Her arm was very sore and hard and swollen for a couple weeks following the chicken pox vaccine.

I am also hesitant to get those vaccines for my younger daughter and have been putting them off.

GaPeach
04-16-2010, 10:41 AM
Haven't heard of the Chicken Pox connection.

Of my 6 children, Melissa had a reaction to the MMR. It was significant enough for the ped to recommend delaying her other immunizations for a while. She was dx with D about 6 years later. Any connection? Who really knows? But it is a scary thought.

VinceysMom
04-16-2010, 10:54 AM
My kids both had the chicken pox, I think they were 2 and 3 (this was the late 90's - my kids may be a tad older than some of yours). Pediatrician did not recommend the vaccine, as at that time they didnt know how long it would last...so, they both ended up with chicken pox contracted in day care! :eek: My son was covered from head to toe, my daughter only about 25 pox. Who really knows, no one knows for sure what causes this, but hopefully, in the near future we will have the answer and the cure. :cwds:

StillMamamia
04-16-2010, 11:07 AM
FWIW, my son with D did not get the chicken pox vaccine, and still got D.;)
He had chicken pox last year.

So many hypothesis...

Brandi's mom
04-16-2010, 11:22 AM
Brandi didn't get the chicken pox vaccine. She got the chicken pox when she was 4 and wasnt diagnosed for 11 more years...

So there is no connection in our case.

thebestnest5
04-16-2010, 11:29 AM
The only vaccination that I know the manufacturer has listed Diabetes Mellitus as an adverse reaction is Merck for their MMRII.

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

It's on page 7 under Adverse Reactions

I excerpted a portion of page 7 below: bolding is mine



"M-M-R? II (Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Virus Vaccine Live) 9912201
7

Geriatric Use

Clinical studies of M-M-R II did not include sufficient numbers of seronegative subjects aged 65 and over to determine whether they respond differently from younger subjects. Other reported clinical experience has not identified differences in responses between the elderly and younger subjects.


ADVERSE REACTIONS

The following adverse reactions are listed in decreasing order of severity, without regard to causality, within each body system category and have been reported during clinical trials, with use of the marketed vaccine, or with use of monovalent or bivalent vaccine containing measles, mumps, or rubella:


Body as a Whole


Panniculitis; atypical measles; fever; syncope; headache; dizziness; malaise; irritability.


Cardiovascular System


Vasculitis.


Digestive System


Pancreatitis; diarrhea; vomiting; parotitis; nausea.

Endocrine System

Diabetes mellitus

Hemic and Lymphatic System

Thrombocytopenia (see WARNINGS, Thrombocytopenia); purpura; regional lymphadenopathy;
leukocytosis.


Immune System


Anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions have been reported as well as related phenomena such as angioneurotic edema (including peripheral or facial edema) and bronchial spasm in individuals with or without an allergic history.


Musculoskeletal System
Arthritis; arthralgia; myalgia.

...."

sam1nat2
04-16-2010, 11:34 AM
No one knows what causes Type 1 diabetes. No one will be able to say for sure what (if anything) is linked to it. It is all just speculation.

If there was such a strong correlation and the vaccine CAUSED D, it would be pulled from the market.

Yes, vaccines are an assualt on the immune system and that can trigger it.

As for vax's no one can MAKE you get it, they make it seem that way, but you can certainly opt out

KitKat
04-16-2010, 11:50 AM
Oh good, another pointless and speculative thread to make parents feel guilty.. :rolleyes:

Sorry, Wilf I didn't mean to offend or upset you. I wanted some information because at one time, I know I saw it on here. I WAS NOT trying to make people feel guilty.

This is why I rarely post and just read.

swellman
04-16-2010, 12:14 PM
I found no studies in PubMed that suggested a link between the vaccine however, there are 2 studies that suggest a correlation between actual viral infections (chicken pox and other infectious diseases) and diabetes which suggests (in my opinion - not the studies) that there's an increased risk with not vaccinating.

As for the Merc insert the Adverse Reactions on all medications are pretty conservative and shouldn't be considered as causal. For example, I would wager a vast majority of medications list headache, diarrhea, vomiting and fever.

Lisa P.
04-16-2010, 12:57 PM
I think you are probably thinking of measles? And I think the reason the vaccine manufacturer says there is a possible link to type 1 is that there is a potential link between getting measles and getting type 1, so the idea is that introducing the virus in a vaccine could be a trigger, too.

Very speculative.

We pick and choose our vaccines, and never received chicken pox. I think it's a bad idea to get it for other reasons (some religious, but also because it is not shown to last more than 10 years so since chicken pox is more dangerous in older kids and adults it seems like a bad idea to protect my kid from getting it when she's 5 and then she has no immunity built up when she's 30 and has forgotten to booster).

It seems reasonable to see a link between the ramping up of immunization programs and the dramatic rise of auto-immune conditions. The "there, there, we know best" attitude of some med bureaucrats tends to make me feel we cannot necessarily trust information about vaccines, the info passed on is usually agenda-driven from one direction or another. That said, I've seen nothing that makes me believe type 1 or any other specific condition is "caused" by vaccinations. At best, I imagine a vaccine might be one in a set of factors.

Seems to me that each mom needs to examine the information she has, the sources she trusts, and her priorities for her family and make a decision tailored for her family. (Dads too, of course).

As for the guilt thing, I think the only way to avoid having speculative threads make you feel guilty is to decide not to feel guilty. Personally, I don't really get why I would feel bad about giving my kid a vaccine I thought was good for her, or not breastfeeding if I thought it was best for us, and then it turned out there was some kind of link. You do the best you can with what you know. Now, it would be different if I, for example, chose to do crack while pregnant and fully knew it was risking problems for the baby and wanted it and did it anyway. If there is selfishness to a decision, I should feel guilty for that no matter what the outcome. But if I made a decision for my family with my child's and family's best interest at heart, I should never feel guilty for that, no matter the outcome. There's a difference between being morally culpable (and therefore guilt comes into play) and being simply mistaken (no blame, no guilt, just life).

Lisa P.
04-16-2010, 01:02 PM
I found no studies in PubMed that suggested a link between the vaccine however, there are 2 studies that suggest a correlation between actual viral infections (chicken pox and other infectious diseases) and diabetes which suggests (in my opinion - not the studies) that there's an increased risk with not vaccinating.

As for the Merc insert the Adverse Reactions on all medications are pretty conservative and shouldn't be considered as causal. For example, I would wager a vast majority of medications list headache, diarrhea, vomiting and fever.

Seems like if it turns out that my body having a mistaken autoimmune reaction to a virus triggers Type 1 then getting the vaccine would cause the same mistaken reaction and be a trigger, also.

I think that's the point of vaccination, right? To start your body's own immune system into play?

So the idea here would be that, if pox were somehow a trigger, that kids who get pox get triggered (when they have a predisposition), kids who get vaccinated get triggered, and kids who get neither don't get triggered.

Not that this proves a correlation, but that would be the thinking -- I think that's why there's a warning on the MMR labels, I don't think they've studied whether the vaccine is linked, they've just seen some link with the disease itself.

Seansmommy
04-16-2010, 03:47 PM
OP keep posting. We all have a voice worth hearing.

Omo2three
04-16-2010, 04:26 PM
Ambrea was showing symptoms of D before the vaccine

Charlotte'sMom
04-16-2010, 04:30 PM
Seems like if it turns out that my body having a mistaken autoimmune reaction to a virus triggers Type 1 then getting the vaccine would cause the same mistaken reaction and be a trigger, also.


This is what I've always thought too. I read an article a long time ago that said that when there's a mumps outbreak, there's a increase in the onset of T1. So I just assumed that the MMR warning label had to do with the mumps component of it. But they also say that any number of viruses could trigger T1, it really just depends on your body's susceptibility to developing it.

Karenwith4
04-16-2010, 04:44 PM
I remember someone stating or a study suggesting Chicken Pox Vac was linked to type 1 diabetes. Does anyone remember this or the site?

Thanks

When Em was diagnosed 2+ years ago one of the first questions they asked us was whether she had been recently vaccinated for CP or exposed to it, which I thought was a bit odd. When I asked why they were collecting info for a study but I didn't pursue it.

Sorry I can't be of more help.
Karen

SueM
04-16-2010, 05:12 PM
Seems like if it turns out that my body having a mistaken autoimmune reaction to a virus triggers Type 1 then getting the vaccine would cause the same mistaken reaction and be a trigger, also.

I think that's the point of vaccination, right? To start your body's own immune system into play?

So the idea here would be that, if pox were somehow a trigger, that kids who get pox get triggered (when they have a predisposition), kids who get vaccinated get triggered, and kids who get neither don't get triggered.

Not that this proves a correlation, but that would be the thinking -- I think that's why there's a warning on the MMR labels, I don't think they've studied whether the vaccine is linked, they've just seen some link with the disease itself.

Right. I would think that it just makes common sense that if the virus itself can trigger the disease (type 1 D as an example) than the vaccine itself could also be a trigger - for a genetically susceptible person. The vaccine (in the case of a live virus vaccine) is simply a weakened strain of the virus.

As for guilt... Never. :) Despite the fact that I do believe that vaccines can trigger many different things in children... I really don't feel guilty about my decision to vaccinate my older two children as I did. I trusted my doctors and I thought that I was doing the right thing. Since then I have changed my opinion on that... but it doesn't change the fact that I did what I felt was best for my children based upon the information that I had at the time.

wilf
04-16-2010, 05:31 PM
Sorry, Wilf I didn't mean to offend or upset you. I wanted some information because at one time, I know I saw it on here. I WAS NOT trying to make people feel guilty.

This is why I rarely post and just read.

I apologize for my really insensitive and intemperate post. I've deleted it.

Note to self - avoid posting in threads on possible causes of diabetes.

swellman
04-16-2010, 05:46 PM
I think that's why there's a warning on the MMR labels, I don't think they've studied whether the vaccine is linked, they've just seen some link with the disease itself.

I'm sure there are people on here that know better than myself but I believe the Adverse Reaction warnings are required when, during one of the phases of a clinical trial, an adverse reaction was observed. So for example, if during the clinical trial someone reports a headache, a fever, diarrhea or gets diagnosed for diabetes all of these make it to the insert regardless of any known link. It doesn't mean they believe or suspect a link or causality.

I think it's extremely speculative to assume that a vaccine would necessarily have the same reaction as a full blown case of an infectious disease. In fact we know that it does not which is exactly why they are administered. I think it's also extremely speculative to suggest a causal relationship between vaccination and a rise in auto-immune disorders - if there is one. Perhaps the epidemiologist can chime in.

thebestnest5
04-16-2010, 06:25 PM
I'm sure there are people on here that know better than myself but I believe the Adverse Reaction warnings are required when, during one of the phases of a clinical trial, an adverse reaction was observed. So for example, if during the clinical trial someone reports a headache, a fever, diarrhea or gets diagnosed for diabetes all of these make it to the insert regardless of any known link. It doesn't mean they believe or suspect a link or causality.

I think it's extremely speculative to assume that a vaccine would necessarily have the same reaction as a full blown case of an infectious disease. In fact we know that it does not which is exactly why they are administered. I think it's also extremely speculative to suggest a causal relationship between vaccination and a rise in auto-immune disorders - if there is one. Perhaps the epidemiologist can chime in.

The children's pediatrician was looking into the hard data on the listing of Diabetes Mellitus as an adverse reaction.

SueM
04-16-2010, 06:32 PM
I think it's extremely speculative to assume that a vaccine would necessarily have the same reaction as a full blown case of an infectious disease. In fact we know that it does not which is exactly why they are administered. I think it's also extremely speculative to suggest a causal relationship between vaccination and a rise in auto-immune disorders - if there is one. Perhaps the epidemiologist can chime in.

The problem is that each individual child comes with a different immune system and genetic makeup, etc. So, in the vast majority of kids the vaccine may be perfectly safe and effective, but for a select few maybe it could cause a problem. The chicken pox is typically given at 12 months of age and oftentimes is given with the MMR vaccine. :confused: That's four live viruses injected at once into a baby. That would never happen in a real life situation... So, I would agree with you that the child wouldn't be getting a "full blown" case of the virus (with the vaccine) but can you talk about how the different viruses intermingle with each other in the body? I don't think that we really know that.

There was also (for a while) a vaccine called ProQuad. That vaccine was a combination vaccine for mmr and chicken pox. It turns out that they used 10x the amount of chicken pox virus (than the standard vaccine) in order for the vaccine to be deemed adequate to immunize against chicken pox. That's just crazy! As it turned out, there were a lot of adverse reactions to the vaccine... Seizures, bad viral rashes, etc.... I wish that there was more of a push to separate vaccines more... (for those who wish to get them all...).

Becky Stevens mom
04-16-2010, 06:57 PM
I found this link that talks about the Varicella vaccine and other vaccines and type 1 diabetes:

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/6/e112

and this one:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11731639

and this:



http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/48976/title/On_the_Scene__From_the_infectious_diseases_meeting _Whats_with_the_vaccine-o-phobia%3F

Danielle2008
04-16-2010, 07:01 PM
I received the Pox vaccine booster a few months before diagnoses..

Early medical writings talk about a disease where people had 'sweet urine'(they would use ants to test if the urine was sweet, and in some cultures, they would actually 'taste' the urine), and symptoms that suggested Diabetes. Unfortunately, vaccines and formula didn't exist then.

Charlotte'sMom
04-16-2010, 07:48 PM
Early medical writings talk about a disease where people had 'sweet urine'(they would use ants to test if the urine was sweet, and in some cultures, they would actually 'taste' the urine), and symptoms that suggested Diabetes. Unfortunately, vaccines and formula didn't exist then.

Type 1 definitely isn't a new disease, but it is rising. I think there were a lot of people who were genetically susceptible to developing T1, that lived their whole lives without it. Now, because of everything we're exposed to, more people's immune systems are turning on them and causing the rise in T1.

Karenwith4
04-16-2010, 08:20 PM
I think it's extremely speculative to assume that a vaccine would necessarily have the same reaction as a full blown case of an infectious disease. In fact we know that it does not which is exactly why they are administered. I think it's also extremely speculative to suggest a causal relationship between vaccination and a rise in auto-immune disorders - if there is one. Perhaps the epidemiologist can chime in.

I think it's extremely speculative to assume that a natural disease which humans have been dealing with for at least 1000 years would have a more injurious effect on the immune system than a cocktail of proven toxic chemicals and preservatives injected into the developing system of child to deliberate stimulate an artificially minimal, incomplete response to a disease which is exponentially more dangerous to adults than children.

Your logic is inherently faulty. The CP vaccine is a weakened version of the virus.

swellman
04-16-2010, 08:51 PM
I think it's extremely speculative to assume that a natural disease which humans have been dealing with for at least 1000 years would have a more injurious effect on the immune system than a cocktail of proven toxic chemicals and preservatives injected into the developing system of child to deliberate stimulate an artificially minimal, incomplete response to a disease which is exponentially more dangerous to adults than children.

Your logic is inherently faulty. The CP vaccine is a weakened version of the virus.

Firstly, the "toxic" fear mongering is fear mongering - it's all about the dose and this is common knowledge.

Secondly, I would wager there is (or was) a crap ton of polio, small pox, measles, mumps and rubella victims that would call that nonsense.

Karenwith4
04-16-2010, 09:00 PM
Firstly, the "toxic" fear mongering is fear mongering - it's all about the dose and this is common knowledge..


Secondly, I would wager there is (or was) a crap ton of polio, small pox, measles, mumps and rubella victims that would call that nonsense.

Check the msds and research profiles of some of the additives. Their effects haven't been studied on the developing immune systems of the infants they are routinely given to as that would be "unethical".

We're talking MMR and Chicken Pox here - not polio and smallbox and if you want to debate please use something other than nebulous 'someones' as that is fearmongering.

Lisa P.
04-16-2010, 09:21 PM
I'm sure there are people on here that know better than myself but I believe the Adverse Reaction warnings are required when, during one of the phases of a clinical trial, an adverse reaction was observed. So for example, if during the clinical trial someone reports a headache, a fever, diarrhea or gets diagnosed for diabetes all of these make it to the insert regardless of any known link. It doesn't mean they believe or suspect a link or causality.

I think it's extremely speculative to assume that a vaccine would necessarily have the same reaction as a full blown case of an infectious disease. In fact we know that it does not which is exactly why they are administered. I think it's also extremely speculative to suggest a causal relationship between vaccination and a rise in auto-immune disorders - if there is one. Perhaps the epidemiologist can chime in.

Is this the only reason to list in the AR section? My assumption was that the CYA factor would mean they would list anything that had been linked in any potential way with the vaccine.

Well, sure it's extremely speculative. I was, um, speculating. I think we do know that the immune system has the same reaction to a vaccine as it does to a "full blown" infection -- that's the whole darned point of vaccinating. And since the immune system is a player in so many of the modern epidemics of chronic conditions, I think reason would support some speculation in that area.

Speculation does not make proof. But no one ever finds proof of anything without speculating first.

To be honest, I don't personally believe vaccinations in themselves are harmful. But the fact that so many people seem to take it personally if anyone suggests they might be makes me skeptical about the scientific basis for their advocacy. Seems faith-based to me, in many. And I'm not a member of the church of the CDC. :rolleyes:

linda
04-16-2010, 09:58 PM
There are so many dxd's of all kinds of autoimmune diseases. What about all of the kids that were dxd way b4 the vaccine? Em was already dxd before vaccinated there are many more risks in contracting a disease or illness that you know can be protected by a vaccine..(My voice as a pp suggested:rolleyes:;))

I support the medical community to continue to help our children with vaccines.

We have a fantastic pediatrician, and I trust the reaserch of his colleauges to help save our childrens lives.

There is no proof what "causes" type 1 diabetes, it is a combination of environmental and genetics. We are here inside the "D" world and wondering what "caused" this...there are so many other ......Em has thyroidism which I believe went undeteced since she was very young. The body for some un knowm reason turns against itself...if you look back into the history of your families, you may be surprised to find out what autoimmune diseases they had.

swellman
04-16-2010, 10:06 PM
Check the msds and research profiles of some of the additives. Their effects haven't been studied on the developing immune systems of the infants they are routinely given to as that would be "unethical".

We're talking MMR and Chicken Pox here - not polio and smallbox and if you want to debate please use something other than nebulous 'someones' as that is fearmongering.

I thought we were talking vaccines in general ... whatever ... M, M and R are pretty significant and I would want to avoid my child contracting them to the best of my ability. The effects are serious.

I'm perfectly aware of the MSDS for most, if not all, of the chemicals used in the vaccines. The reference to the MSDS is both disingenuous and misleading. The data in the MSDS do not reflect the reality of the use of these chemicals in minute quantities. In fact they are being tested each and every day and there is no scientific evidence (that I am aware of) that links the additives, in the quantity given in vaccines, to deleterious effects.

Karenwith4
04-16-2010, 10:14 PM
I thought we were talking vaccines in general ... whatever ... M, M and R are pretty significant and I would want to avoid my child contracting them to the best of my ability. The effects are serious.

I'm perfectly aware of the MSDS for most, if not all, of the chemicals used in the vaccines. The reference to the MSDS is both disingenuous and misleading. The data in the MSDS do not reflect the reality of the use of these chemicals in minute quantities. In fact they are being tested each and every day and there is no scientific evidence (that I am aware of) that links the additives, in the quantity given in vaccines, to deleterious effects.

hmmm - we can agree to disagree then. Because I think that there has been plenty of evidence that additives in vaccines (phenol A, formalydehyde, thimerosal to name just a few common ones) have been implicated in a variety of "deleterious effects".

We all make our own choices and I respect your choice to interpret the research as you see fit. I disagree with you, but that in no way means I have done any less due dilligence or put in any less thought to this decision than you have and your continued assumption that isn't the case is beyond arrogant.
have a good night.
Karen

Lisa P.
04-16-2010, 10:20 PM
I thought we were talking vaccines in general ... whatever ... M, M and R are pretty significant and I would want to avoid my child contracting them to the best of my ability. The effects are serious.



Actually, R is pretty insignificant in children. Rubella is a risk for a fetus if the mother contracts the disease -- in that case, rubella is extremely serious and can cause a myriad of horrible defects. But a five year old child contracting rubella -- she probably wouldn't even know she'd caught it. And then she'd have a natural immunity that lasts longer than the vaccine immunity. It's estimated that before the R vaccine was widely administered about 80% of young women had developed a natural immunity to the virus by the time they hit puberty. It's been speculated that a wise approach might have been to test adolescent females for the immunity and administer the vaccine to only those who needed it at that point. Instead, as a society we decided to "capture" the population by blanket immunizing the very young. Not an evil decision -- fetal rubella infection was a horrible tragedy that the medical community decided needed to be avoided with extreme diligence.

There are about 200 cases of rubella reported in the U.S. every year, mostly in folks who have recently come into the country.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, the perceived shout of"vaccines contain intelligent alien virus spores!" is met with "You clearly want your kid to get a horrible pox and die like all children everywhere did in the middle ages".

Information is good. Propaganda is unhelpful. What this arena needs, like so many others, is a public able to discern the difference between the two.

swellman
04-16-2010, 10:30 PM
Is this the only reason to list in the AR section? My assumption was that the CYA factor would mean they would list anything that had been linked in any potential way with the vaccine.

The Adverse Events can come from both the original inclusion from the clinical trials or from post approval monitoring by the FDA. I believe the FDA has to approve the inclusion and doubt any CYA goes on. It's either reported during the trials or a trend has been identified and since there's no post approval trend identified, that I know of, in this instance I think it's safe to assume it was reported during trials.


I think we do know that the immune system has the same reaction to a vaccine as it does to a "full blown" infection -- that's the whole darned point of vaccinating. And since the immune system is a player in so many of the modern epidemics of chronic conditions, I think reason would support some speculation in that area.

I have to disagree - there are very few if any symptoms with the vaccine compared to very severe symptoms with the full blown disease and as such I think it's incorrect to say that they have the same reaction. Yes, there's an immune response but it's obviously much less severe and, if the virus is dead, I'm not even sure it's the same mechanism. I think it's a pretty big logical leap to assume the vaccination and the disease are on par but I have to admit I'm no expert so I can't say for sure either.


Speculation does not make proof. But no one ever finds proof of anything without speculating first.

There's a very big difference between speculation and hypothesis or theory.


To be honest, I don't personally believe vaccinations in themselves are harmful. But the fact that so many people seem to take it personally if anyone suggests they might be makes me skeptical about the scientific basis for their advocacy. Seems faith-based to me, in many. And I'm not a member of the church of the CDC. :rolleyes:

I don't take it personally but I do feel very strongly that, in the case of vaccinations, wild speculation, misinformation and fear mongering (I'm not accusing you by the way) can, and have, caused our children harm by reducing the vaccination rate. Not only that but I also feel that vaccinations are a moral obligation. By not vaccinating, it places the entire community at risk - my child and yours (in the general sense) - not just the child in question.

Becky Stevens mom
04-16-2010, 10:44 PM
Babies are vaccinated at birth for Hepatitis B. Who is at the highest risk for Hep B? IV drug users (heroin, crystal meth) that share needles, and people that have multiple s*x partners. Doesnt describe any babys I know:confused: So why vaccinate a newborn baby for it?

For more information about vaccines and autoimmune disease I suggest reading the book "The autoimmune epidemic" Its not fear mongering nor sensationalism. It states the facts about autoimmune diseases and the possible reasons for the epidemic proportions of many autoimmune diseases, including type 1 diabetes.

KitKat
04-16-2010, 10:53 PM
Babies are vaccinated at birth for Hepatitis B. Who is at the highest risk for Hep B? IV drug users (heroin, crystal meth) that share needles, and people that have multiple s*x partners. Doesnt describe any babys I know:confused: So why vaccinate a newborn baby for it?

For more information about vaccines and autoimmune disease I suggest reading the book "The autoimmune epidemic" Its not fear mongering nor sensationalism. It states the facts about autoimmune diseases and the possible reasons for the epidemic proportions of many autoimmune diseases, including type 1 diabetes.

Thanks Becky for the site and the book information. My son has had shingles SINCE being dx'd. But my daughter already has had adverse reactions to vaccine shots. After the H1N1 shot, we were sick for a week with a swollen arm, lymph nodes, fever and rash. (No food allergies) She had such a bad reaction her ANA test was 81 and our ped sent us to a specialist because she fear she had Lupus!!

Our ped has recommended spreading out the shots and no need to give all at once. She also stated I would NOT give the chicken pox vac considering your families history with auto immune. (Son type 1 and I have Hatshimoto (thyroid))

I appreciate everyones thoughts. I have vaccinated my kids; however, almost 6 years ago, I started wondering and investigating some theories...thoughts. I think I have the information I need for my family to make a decision. :):cwds:

Thanks everyone!!

Lisa P.
04-16-2010, 10:57 PM
The Adverse Events can come from both the original inclusion from the clinical trials or from post approval monitoring by the FDA. I believe the FDA has to approve the inclusion and doubt any CYA goes on. It's either reported during the trials or a trend has been identified and since there's no post approval trend identified, that I know of, in this instance I think it's safe to assume it was reported during trials.



I have to disagree - there are very few if any symptoms with the vaccine compared to very severe symptoms with the full blown disease and as such I think it's incorrect to say that they have the same reaction. Yes, there's an immune response but it's obviously much less severe and, if the virus is dead, I'm not even sure it's the same mechanism. I think it's a pretty big logical leap to assume the vaccination and the disease are on par but I have to admit I'm no expert so I can't say for sure either.



There's a very big difference between speculation and hypothesis or theory.



I don't take it personally but I do feel very strongly that, in the case of vaccinations, wild speculation, misinformation and fear mongering (I'm not accusing you by the way) can, and have, caused our children harm by reducing the vaccination rate. Not only that but I also feel that vaccinations are a moral obligation. By not vaccinating, it places the entire community at risk - my child and yours (in the general sense) - not just the child in question.

I guess I don't think of immune system reactions equaling symptoms, which is obviously a mistake. But the main immune system reaction is the creation of antibodies, isn't that so? And isn't that a mechanism at work with both natural infections and vaccinations? And isn't the current thinking that the immune system of a diabetic child has created antibodies to its own beta cells?

I do understand the idea behind "herd immunity" and that some feel my choice to cafeteria pick shots compromises the safety of their fully immunized kids. That's why I think it's even more important for people to understand the real arguments all around. If I buy your argument, I'm more likely to join you in a full course of vaccinations and we'll all do well, in your opinion. But if you don't understand my POV and I find your arguments unconvincing, I won't want to help with the "herd"'s immunity because I'll find the premise faulty (which I do).

I may be projecting a bit -- once upon a time, I thought all moms who declined any vaccines were lunatic fringe -- something neurotic in them that ignored the obvious good of vaccines. But, well, then I got to be an old lady and read more and talked to people and figured out there's more to it than what we are told by the powers that be.

Good example -- recent gardasil vaccine. How many women got pap smears regularly every year like good girls because it was checking for cancer? How many were told that the pap smear was actually looking for a sexually transmitted viral infection? But then the vaccine comes out, and suddenly we all need to know that cervical cancer is often caused by the papilloma virus (excuse my spelling!). There are a lot of interests involved in these things and it's hard to see the real picture behind all the advocacy. A person who tells me I need to inject my newborn with HepB vaccine to protect his or her kid's herd immunity is not hearing me, and I'm not likely to be able to listen well to him or her (not that you are saying that, it's just an extreme example).

wilf
04-16-2010, 10:58 PM
In my work (environmental science), one of the frightening factors we have to deal with is that our society has in use about 100,000 chemicals. We know enough to set drinking water standards for maybe 250 of them. The rest we NEVER bother testing for, because we wouldn't know what to do with the results even if we found something.

Our society's promiscuous use and poorly controlled disposal of chemicals is in my opinion a vastly greater threat to human (and other species') health than vaccines will ever be.. :(

Lisa P.
04-16-2010, 11:01 PM
The Adverse Events can come from both the original inclusion from the clinical trials or from post approval monitoring by the FDA. I believe the FDA has to approve the inclusion and doubt any CYA goes on. It's either reported during the trials or a trend has been identified and since there's no post approval trend identified, that I know of, in this instance I think it's safe to assume it was reported during trials.



I have to disagree - there are very few if any symptoms with the vaccine compared to very severe symptoms with the full blown disease and as such I think it's incorrect to say that they have the same reaction. Yes, there's an immune response but it's obviously much less severe and, if the virus is dead, I'm not even sure it's the same mechanism. I think it's a pretty big logical leap to assume the vaccination and the disease are on par but I have to admit I'm no expert so I can't say for sure either.



There's a very big difference between speculation and hypothesis or theory.



I don't take it personally but I do feel very strongly that, in the case of vaccinations, wild speculation, misinformation and fear mongering (I'm not accusing you by the way) can, and have, caused our children harm by reducing the vaccination rate. Not only that but I also feel that vaccinations are a moral obligation. By not vaccinating, it places the entire community at risk - my child and yours (in the general sense) - not just the child in question.

Oh, and there's only a big difference between speculation and theory if you take speculation to have a derogatory implication. I don't. I consider speculation the act of observing and contemplating; as such, it's at the least a precondition for forming any hypothesis, no?

Lisa P.
04-16-2010, 11:01 PM
Sorry -- thread hijacking again.
Trying so hard to avoid doing dishes. Shame on me. Sorry to the OP!:)

swellman
04-16-2010, 11:03 PM
It's been speculated that a wise approach might have been to test adolescent females for the immunity and administer the vaccine to only those who needed it at that point.

This seems a rational approach except for the fact that vaccines aren't 100% effective which is why everyone needs to be vaccinated. If the vaccination rate falls below a certain percentage the herd immunity fails and those that are susceptible either because their vaccination failed or because of no vaccination for medical reasons are then at risk. I suspect this is why they "blanket vaccinate" for this disease.

swellman
04-16-2010, 11:21 PM
Oh, and there's only a big difference between speculation and theory if you take speculation to have a derogatory implication. I don't. I consider speculation the act of observing and contemplating; as such, it's at the least a precondition for forming any hypothesis, no?

I didn't mean it the way it sounded - I think. My concern for "speculation", and by that I mean someone who isn't an expert in a particular field, the both of us I would imagine, contemplating a point of view that might be taken seriously by someone who may already be predisposed to one side or another for whatever reason.

As an example I might say "It seems reasonable to me that something as toxic as X shouldn't be used in a vaccine. Look at the all the horrible things it can do to you." That's speculation - not a hypothesis nor a theory. Then someone reads it and thinks "God, X is bad - I'm not putting it into my child" without knowing experts in the field evaluated X for toxicity at the levels in a vaccine.

Flutterby
04-16-2010, 11:26 PM
The only vaccination that I know the manufacturer has listed Diabetes Mellitus as an adverse reaction is Merck for their MMRII.

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

It's on page 7 under Adverse Reactions

I excerpted a portion of page 7 below: bolding is mine



"M-M-R? II (Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Virus Vaccine Live) 9912201
7

Geriatric Use

Clinical studies of M-M-R II did not include sufficient numbers of seronegative subjects aged 65 and over to determine whether they respond differently from younger subjects. Other reported clinical experience has not identified differences in responses between the elderly and younger subjects.


ADVERSE REACTIONS

The following adverse reactions are listed in decreasing order of severity, without regard to causality, within each body system category and have been reported during clinical trials, with use of the marketed vaccine, or with use of monovalent or bivalent vaccine containing measles, mumps, or rubella:


Body as a Whole


Panniculitis; atypical measles; fever; syncope; headache; dizziness; malaise; irritability.


Cardiovascular System


Vasculitis.


Digestive System


Pancreatitis; diarrhea; vomiting; parotitis; nausea.

Endocrine System

Diabetes mellitus

Hemic and Lymphatic System

Thrombocytopenia (see WARNINGS, Thrombocytopenia); purpura; regional lymphadenopathy;
leukocytosis.


Immune System


Anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions have been reported as well as related phenomena such as angioneurotic edema (including peripheral or facial edema) and bronchial spasm in individuals with or without an allergic history.


Musculoskeletal System
Arthritis; arthralgia; myalgia.

...."



I was discussing this with my husband a while ago.. he said that it could have been ONE person during the trials that happened to get diabetes after the vaccination.. they have to claim that as a possible side effect because there is no way of proving it WASN'T caused by it.. but really, there is no way to prove it either.

I totally flipped out when that was first brought up on this site.. I have since calmed down LOL.. :D

swellman
04-16-2010, 11:31 PM
Babies are vaccinated at birth for Hepatitis B. Who is at the highest risk for Hep B? IV drug users (heroin, crystal meth) that share needles, and people that have multiple s*x partners. Doesnt describe any babys I know:confused: So why vaccinate a newborn baby for it?.

More than a third of the world, or 2 billion people, have been infected with Hepatitis B. I seriously doubt that even a small minority fall into the herion and meth addicts or promiscuous category - but I am merely speculating.

Do you ever fly?

swellman
04-16-2010, 11:33 PM
I was discussing this with my husband a while ago.. he said that it could have been ONE person during the trials that happened to get diabetes after the vaccination.. they have to claim that as a possible side effect because there is no way of proving it WASN'T caused by it.. but really, there is no way to prove it either.

I totally flipped out when that was first brought up on this site.. I have since calmed down LOL.. :D

That's my understanding as well and if a woman in the trials starts her period they may have to list menstrual cramps.

swellman
04-16-2010, 11:39 PM
I disagree with you, but that in no way means I have done any less due dilligence or put in any less thought to this decision than you have and your continued assumption that isn't the case is beyond arrogant.

I guess I apologize for the unintended tone. If you have some scientific data that I didn't find I would love to see it.

Lisa P.
04-16-2010, 11:49 PM
I didn't mean it the way it sounded - I think. My concern for "speculation", and by that I mean someone who isn't an expert in a particular field, the both of us I would imagine, contemplating a point of view that might be taken seriously by someone who may already be predisposed to one side or another for whatever reason.

As an example I might say "It seems reasonable to me that something as toxic as X shouldn't be used in a vaccine. Look at the all the horrible things it can do to you." That's speculation - not a hypothesis nor a theory. Then someone reads it and thinks "God, X is bad - I'm not putting it into my child" without knowing experts in the field evaluated X for toxicity at the levels in a vaccine.


Yes, I can see that.

Here's the problem I've got, is that you then classify as speculation anything that isn't done by an expert in the field, right?

It would be very clean if experts made judgments based on their expertise. Unfortunately, I find much of what experts make judgments about is not something they are uniquely or even often particularly qualified to make judgments about.

So in this case, the decision was made in the case of rubella to pursue a herd immunity strategy rather than a different strategy. The expert might understand the workings of rubella and its vaccine better than I do, certainly. But he is not more qualified than I am to make a decision about how to weigh the risks and benefits to a society by choosing one strategy over another.

So I am left with little choice but to employ speculation about the science in order to make my own decisions about the stuff that isn't factual science. Would appreciate if the experts clearly laid out all the facts in a trustworthy manner and left the social judgments to an informed populace. But I don't feel that's the case.

Maybe you have a third option, a way I can make decisions for my family without engaging in the kind of speculation you describe (which I agree is far from ideal and often counterproductive) but also without trusting someone to make decisions for me simply because he has letters after his name or an agency logo on his letterhead. I am inclined to miss stuff -- is there a better way?

Lisa P.
04-16-2010, 11:55 PM
More than a third of the world, or 2 billion people, have been infected with Hepatitis B. I seriously doubt that even a small minority fall into the herion and meth addicts or promiscuous category - but I am merely speculating.

Do you ever fly?

Hep B is another good example -- health care workers told us it was only transmitted by needles (addicts or health care workers accidentally exposed) or sexual contact. Then they decided to start immunizing infants.

Those two things don't jive.

Tell us we have to immunize infants because we were wrong about transmission. Or be honest with us and tell us those kids are being captured while they are in the hospital so we can try to knock out Hep B like smallpox (I think it's every vaccine doc's dream to wipe a whole disease off the face of the planet, it would be cool, wouldn't it?).

But instead, we are told to do it because they say to, after having demonstrable contradiction dropped in our laps.

cindyrn6617
04-17-2010, 12:00 AM
Ryan had the vaccine as a toddler and turned out to be 1 in 5 million with actual shingles a few years later. Just so happened, it was in his mouth, down his throat on the right side. Less than a year, he had symptoms of D. I have always believed the shingles triggered issues with the pancreas just by the location of the shingles. Not sure what all was affected as it moved down. Just too much coincidence. He had a genetic link as his Pat. GF had type 1, but the herpes zoster virus is what tipped the scale for us.

cindyrn6617
04-17-2010, 12:04 AM
Remember the reasons for vaccinating: to prevent the diseases. Many children died from Diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis prior to the vaccines.

I just heard yesterday at work, an infant died from Pertussis. Due to the increase of cases, we may be required to get dTap vaccines updated at work soon. Not really happy about it, but I don't want Pertussis either. I'm very scared of vaccines now, especially with my kids.

swellman
04-17-2010, 12:04 AM
Maybe you have a third option, a way I can make decisions for my family without engaging in the kind of speculation you describe (which I agree is far from ideal and often counterproductive) but also without trusting someone to make decisions for me simply because he has letters after his name or an agency logo on his letterhead. I am inclined to miss stuff -- is there a better way?

No, you're absolutely right. I did not mean to argue an appeal to authority. That wasn't my point at all. This is what I believe most people do each and every day. Some appeal to authority and some appeal to the "lunatic fringe" you previously mentioned. My only point is that I think it important to carefully speculate in public so as not to confuse or accidentally influence. I love to sit around and speculate crazy stuff, it's how we spent our free time in college, but I would cringe if someone overheard it and took it to heart and when we talk about possible causes of diabetes and other vaccination issues I think it's imperative that speculation be done with caution. That was my point. Anecdotes are worthless but it's surprising how many people take a data point of one or a tragically poor sampling to heart.

CGM is alarming and I have a Walk to Cure Diabetes tomorrow. I apologize again for any unintended offense.

wilf
04-17-2010, 12:52 AM
I just heard yesterday at work, an infant died from Pertussis. Due to the increase of cases, we may be required to get dTap vaccines updated at work soon. Not really happy about it, but I don't want Pertussis either. I'm very scared of vaccines now, especially with my kids.

My parents were slow to get me the Pertussis booster shot as kid, and I got a "mild" case that was possibly the worst experience of my life. Fits of uncontrollable coughing so bad that they ended in vomiting - sold me on the importance of vaccination. Trust me - you don't want to get Pertussis..

GaPeach
04-17-2010, 08:23 AM
To KitKat: I know that we hijacked the thread, but it has been a really healthy discussion.


The problem is that each individual child comes with a different immune system and genetic makeup, etc. So, in the vast majority of kids the vaccine may be perfectly safe and effective, but for a select few maybe it could cause a problem. The chicken pox is typically given at 12 months of age and oftentimes is given with the MMR vaccine. :confused: That's four live viruses injected at once into a baby. That would never happen in a real life situation... So, I would agree with you that the child wouldn't be getting a "full blown" case of the virus (with the vaccine) but can you talk about how the different viruses intermingle with each other in the body? I don't think that we really know that.



My personal thought is that the vaccine is a trigger not the cause. I am concerned about the "other" ingrediants in the vaccine. Without the vaccines, the herd would at some point expose a child to the disease and the trigger would occur then, of course.

The bombardment of multiple vaccines in one dr office visit alarm me. The vaccine schedule for my oldest children (23 and 21) was so very different. There were far fewer shots and they were spread apart much further.



Babies are vaccinated at birth for Hepatitis B. Who is at the highest risk for Hep B? IV drug users (heroin, crystal meth) that share needles, and people that have multiple s*x partners. Doesnt describe any babys I know:confused: So why vaccinate a newborn baby for it?
For more information about vaccines and autoimmune disease I suggest reading the book "The autoimmune epidemic" Its not fear mongering nor sensationalism. It states the facts about autoimmune diseases and the possible reasons for the epidemic proportions of many autoimmune diseases, including type 1 diabetes.

"Way back when", vaccines were created to target specific epidemics. My father was a victim of polio. I am very greatful that a vaccine was developed to irradicate this awful disease. However, I think we have moved from irradicating widespread outbreaks in the general population to the premise of wiping out diseases that are behavior oriented.

I know that the "social" diseases are horrible for those that contract them, however, if the herd does not engage in behaviors that could result in contracting the disease - why should everyone be vaccinated and risk triggering an auto-immune disease for the sake of the disease elimination.


Thanks Becky for the site and the book information. My son has had shingles SINCE being dx'd. But my daughter already has had adverse reactions to vaccine shots. After the H1N1 shot, we were sick for a week with a swollen arm, lymph nodes, fever and rash. (No food allergies) She had such a bad reaction her ANA test was 81 and our ped sent us to a specialist because she fear she had Lupus!!

Our ped has recommended spreading out the shots and no need to give all at once. She also stated I would NOT give the chicken pox vac considering your families history with auto immune. (Son type 1 and I have Hatshimoto (thyroid))

I appreciate everyones thoughts. I have vaccinated my kids; however, almost 6 years ago, I started wondering and investigating some theories...thoughts. I think I have the information I need for my family to make a decision. :):cwds:

Thanks everyone!!

With 6 kids, I've been to countless well-checkups. The oldest 2 were vaccinated on schedule. As the 3rd child came around, I voiced my concerns of the Hep B vaccine to my ped. In the end, he had no problem with my not having him vaccinated for it.

By the time, 4th child arrived, I was dead set against the hep B and having concerns about other vaccines. After researching the "live" polio vaccine reactions, I requested she be vaccinated with the "dead" virus. (I thought that since her grandfather had suffered from polio, she might be at an increased risk of contracting it from the vaccine.) He whole-heartily agreed and told the nurse, "I just received information today from the CDC stating that there is an increased risk from the "live" virus. Please discard our remaining supply."

With child #5, she had an eye problem at birth that caused a 9 month long infection. I refused any vaccines while her body was fighting the eye infection. The ped agreed. Once she had surgery to correct her eye, I was ready to get on track with vaccines. The ped was not!

He drafted a very modified vaccine schedule for her and eliminated all the "social vaccines" and "day care" vaccines. He said that many of the vaccines are more for the benefit of society's hectic lifestyle and the vaccines help prevent the contraction of a disease that is annoying but not life-threatening or maiming to the vast population. He would always advise me of the Am. Pediatic Assn reccommendations, give me data on the # of cases of XYZ disease, and other info, and then tell me what he had vaccinated his own similar age children for. Then I was free to make my own decision.




I do understand the idea behind "herd immunity" and that some feel my choice to cafeteria pick shots compromises the safety of their fully immunized kids. That's why I think it's even more important for people to understand the real arguments all around. If I buy your argument, I'm more likely to join you in a full course of vaccinations and we'll all do well, in your opinion. But if you don't understand my POV and I find your arguments unconvincing, I won't want to help with the "herd"'s immunity because I'll find the premise faulty (which I do).

I may be projecting a bit -- once upon a time, I thought all moms who declined any vaccines were lunatic fringe -- something neurotic in them that ignored the obvious good of vaccines. But, well, then I got to be an old lady and read more and talked to people and figured out there's more to it than what we are told by the powers that be.

Good example -- recent gardasil vaccine. How many women got pap smears regularly every year like good girls because it was checking for cancer? How many were told that the pap smear was actually looking for a sexually transmitted viral infection? But then the vaccine comes out, and suddenly we all need to know that cervical cancer is often caused by the papilloma virus (excuse my spelling!). There are a lot of interests involved in these things and it's hard to see the real picture behind all the advocacy. A person who tells me I need to inject my newborn with HepB vaccine to protect his or her kid's herd immunity is not hearing me, and I'm not likely to be able to listen well to him or her (not that you are saying that, it's just an extreme example).

By child 6, I have become a cafeteria shopper for vaccines. My 23yo is doing the same with her 12mo old son. I guess the "old lady in me" has influenced the young daughter.

I have 3 girls (6, 10, 11) facing the Garasil vaccine. As of right now, I will not subject them to that vaccine. Unfortunately, many very healthy girls had the vaccine and now are suffering greatly from it. Once again, a "social vaccine" is being pushed upon the herd.

I guess that's by two cents+ on this subject.

I do love a healthy debate among friends.

Karenwith4
04-17-2010, 08:43 AM
I guess I apologize for the unintended tone. If you have some scientific data that I didn't find I would love to see it.

Well I don't know what you have read and what you dismiss because it is "speculative." There is plenty of evidence that heavy metals cause a variety of issues and yet we inject them into our infants in an attempt to manipulate their immune systems, often to prevent diseases like Chicken Pox, mumps and Rotavirus which are essentially benign diseases if contracted in childhood in the developed world, or diseases like HepB or Rubella which are concerns for smaller portions of the population. We use DNA of other species, porcine and bovine serum which can carry unknown viruses. (Check out the news on Rotarix). Thimersol is still in vaccines despite plenty of evidence that the minute amounts in vaccines can cause sufficient toxicity to harm our children. We are changing the epidemology of disease in a population and we are repeatedly and artificially stimulating children's immune systems in ways that we do not understand.

Chicken pox vaccine was developed for children with lukemia because the disease is dangerous for that population. There is no need for EVERY child to have that vaccine and in fact a case can be made that it is more likely to shift contraction of chicken pox to adulthood when it is far more dangerous, and to increase the prevalence of shingles - far far worse than chicken pox. Mumps is a benign common childhood disease. Lisa's right - Rubella is not a danger for children. Measles is something I would consider vaccinating against but it is becoming essentially impossible to access a vaccine which is for measles only, rather than MMR or the new MMRV. Why? Check out the patent dates.

Parents who choose not to vaccinate are subjected to the argument that it is our "moral obligation" to vaccinate and as you have repeatedly suggested here should not to even speculate about the efficacy or the need for these vaccines as it is irresponsible.

I'm not against all vaccines and we may over time vaccinate for certain diseases, especially if we plan to travel. I do however think our current collective approach of blanket vaccinations for our infants and young children to protect against diseases which for the most part are not a concern for them is less than prudent, and that far too few parents do their research or have the sorts of discussions like this one which prompts them to really think about what they are being asked to do. Why are you so afraid of the conversation?

SueM
04-17-2010, 08:48 AM
I don't take it personally but I do feel very strongly that, in the case of vaccinations, wild speculation, misinformation and fear mongering (I'm not accusing you by the way) can, and have, caused our children harm by reducing the vaccination rate. Not only that but I also feel that vaccinations are a moral obligation. By not vaccinating, it places the entire community at risk - my child and yours (in the general sense) - not just the child in question.

It's a moral obligation to expose my kids to unnecessary vaccinations? Really? If I decide not to vaccinate my child for Hep B... that's my choice. If I decide that the chicken pox vaccine is unnecessary... that's my choice. If I have done my due diligence in researching the topic and am convinced that vaccines can do damage to the immune system... than telling me about the good of the herd goes in one ear and out the other. :) Not sure if you've noticed how sickly the herd has become these days. Autism, autoimmune diseases, food allergies, etc. etc... are everywhere. I wonder why?

Karenwith4
04-17-2010, 08:54 AM
In my work (environmental science), one of the frightening factors we have to deal with is that our society has in use about 100,000 chemicals. We know enough to set drinking water standards for maybe 250 of them. The rest we NEVER bother testing for, because we wouldn't know what to do with the results even if we found something.

Our society's promiscuous use and poorly controlled disposal of chemicals is in my opinion a vastly greater threat to human (and other species') health than vaccines will ever be.. :(

I agree completely. And would add that I believe the threat is also greater than the threat of most of the diseases we vaccinate against.

Lisa P.
04-17-2010, 09:06 AM
No, you're absolutely right. I did not mean to argue an appeal to authority. That wasn't my point at all. This is what I believe most people do each and every day. Some appeal to authority and some appeal to the "lunatic fringe" you previously mentioned. My only point is that I think it important to carefully speculate in public so as not to confuse or accidentally influence. I love to sit around and speculate crazy stuff, it's how we spent our free time in college, but I would cringe if someone overheard it and took it to heart and when we talk about possible causes of diabetes and other vaccination issues I think it's imperative that speculation be done with caution. That was my point. Anecdotes are worthless but it's surprising how many people take a data point of one or a tragically poor sampling to heart.

CGM is alarming and I have a Walk to Cure Diabetes tomorrow. I apologize again for any unintended offense.

No offense to me, for sure.
Yes, you're right. I'll take whooping cough as an example of a disease that is very dangerous, very nasty, and I'm grateful as all get out to have a vaccine for that. If someone took my arguments against my own family getting the pox vaccine and used that and nothing more to decide to not get DTP, I would feel some culpability there.
But I also think that this backlash where some parents choose to never vaccinate it inspired in large part by the huge push to vaccinate for everything and the assertion that the choice should be one based on the needs of population and decided by medical bureaucrats instead of based on the needs of individuals and decided by individuals.
Sorry if I offended -- didn't mean to seem to jump -- in addition to being congenitally jumpy I also have seen these threads before where people get slammed for choosing against one vaccine or another and called nut cases and immoral and irresponsible (not that you were doing that, you weren't), so I tend to chime in 'cause I never mind being called that stuff.:p
Hope you've got a great, sunny, lightly breezy day ahead.

Lisa P.
04-17-2010, 09:22 AM
Measles is something I would consider vaccinating against but it is becoming essentially impossible to access a vaccine which is for measles only, rather than MMR or the new MMRV. Why? Check out the patent dates.


See, this is one of the big problems that I have with the vaccine thing -- lack of choice. Millions of kids are given MMR each year. They all get, like, the same friggen shot. The same.

We won't vaccinate with the current rubella vaccine. There is one used in Japan that we would use when our girls hit puberty, but we can't -- FDA. Maybe that will change.

We have to date immunized for measles and mumps using the stand alone vaccines. But a bit ago they announced they aren't going to manufacture that any more.

Now, millions of consumers, and only one choice. We won't put up with it for dog food, but it's o.k. for our vaccines? The free market has been subverted here, parents for years have been told to take it and be grateful and trust us and don't look into it yourselves. And the folks in charge have turned a health care need into a cash cow monopoly and a bureaucratic fiefdom.

DTP and Polio vaccines are miracles. Hep A vaccines for everyone -- that's goofy. If the folks using the product are told not to distinguish, it messes it all up.

Karenwith4
04-17-2010, 11:12 AM
See, this is one of the big problems that I have with the vaccine thing -- lack of choice. Millions of kids are given MMR each year. They all get, like, the same friggen shot. The same.

We won't vaccinate with the current rubella vaccine. There is one used in Japan that we would use when our girls hit puberty, but we can't -- FDA. Maybe that will change.

We have to date immunized for measles and mumps using the stand alone vaccines. But a bit ago they announced they aren't going to manufacture that any more.

Now, millions of consumers, and only one choice. We won't put up with it for dog food, but it's o.k. for our vaccines? The free market has been subverted here, parents for years have been told to take it and be grateful and trust us and don't look into it yourselves. And the folks in charge have turned a health care need into a cash cow monopoly and a bureaucratic fiefdom.

DTP and Polio vaccines are miracles. Hep A vaccines for everyone -- that's goofy. If the folks using the product are told not to distinguish, it messes it all up.

LOL you go girl!

Lisa P.
04-17-2010, 11:46 AM
LOL you go girl!

It'll all be in the manifesto. . . . .
:D

Becky Stevens mom
04-17-2010, 12:39 PM
More than a third of the world, or 2 billion people, have been infected with Hepatitis B. I seriously doubt that even a small minority fall into the herion and meth addicts or promiscuous category - but I am merely speculating.

Do you ever fly?

Transmission of hepatitis B virus results from exposure to infectious blood or body fluids containing blood. Possible forms of transmission include (but are not limited to) unprotected sexual contact, blood transfusions, re-use of contaminated needles & syringes, and vertical transmission from mother to child during childbirth. Without intervention, a mother who is positive for HBsAg confers a 20% risk of passing the infection to her offspring at the time of birth. This risk is as high as 90% if the mother is also positive for HBeAg. HBV can be transmitted between family members within households, possibly by contact of nonintact skin or mucous membrane with secretions or saliva containing HBV.[25][26] However, at least 30% of reported hepatitis B among adults cannot be associated with an identifiable risk factor.[27]


From Wikipedia:

Most people in this country are at highest risk of getting Hep B from the methods I described. A newborn baby is not at high risk for Hep B unless the Mother had it before birth. I was tested for Hep B before I gave birth with both of my children. I realize that if babys are going with their familys where Hep B is more prevalent it would be a good idea for them to be vaccinated for Hep B. But its not necessary to be vaccinating newborns on the first day of life anymore then its necessary to give a small baby numerous vaccines at every well baby visit. Both of my boys have had ALL the vaccines that our pediatrician has said they would need. I never questioned her about it. I do feel that vaccines save thousands of lives but I will never feel that its necessary to give so many to a baby with an immature, developing immune system.